THSCC Forums

One year ago this week, I responded to a vehicle pinning with one of the Fire Departments I work with. Many of you know that I work within emergency services as a Wildland Firefighter. Much of our time is spent recognizing and mitigating risk. On this day we were doing recon work for a pre attack fire plan when the call came out. When we arrived on scene we saw a pair of legs sticking out from under a car. The victim was diagnosing a starter issue (shade tree mechanic) and ONLY using a jack to hold the car up. The jack failed/slipped and the car fell on his chest. He died on the scene even after the guys worked him (cpr) for over 20 minutes.

My point…. I got to thinking, which is against policy and procedure, but how many times have I cut a corner (while working on my junk) thinking I’ll be a-ok.

I embarrassed to say it’s more times than I’d like to admit.
Things like: Jack Stands, Blind Jacking points, correctly strapping down the car, unloading the car without a spotter, Backing without a spotter and HANS device on… it goes on and on.
I suppose there are just as many risks/dangers within the paddock than actually out on track.

Does the club staff a safety officer during their events? Someone to recognize these risks and kindly offer assistance. I know it sounds like a hall monitor gig, but well worth it if someone avoids getting hurt. If you’ve ever seen someone “worked” before you’ll know that it’s a terrible thing to see and worse if your on the receiving end… it sticks in your mind.

Stay Safe

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http://greenjacketracing.blogspot.com/
1987 Mustang GT Track Car-
1999 Toyota Tacoma
1988 BMW 735i 5 speed
1989 BMW 325i running like German Junk
2004 F-350 Super Duty (NC taxpayer owned)

Some times I think about just using the jack when I Probably won't be under the car, like brakes etc. Then I think of my wife coming out and finding me like you did this guy. I am less scared of dieing than knowing how pissed she would be at me.

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2002 MCS, 2003 MCS Track Rat, 2003 Generic White Yukon, 2003 BMWk1200rs, 1973 CB350F, 02 996. 08 Cayenne Turbo
http://www.clinehallagency.com

I've worked under a car using a scissor jack as my only means of support (albeit on flat land and at the standard jack points...pinch weld) and felt ok about it given the large FoS those scissor jacks are designed with. Granted if the job I'm performing is something that requires loosening/tightening some very high torque fasteners, I'll definitely get it on stands.

But I'll be damned if I work under a car being supported purely by a hydraulic jack.

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

this must be safety week

I was just talking to one of our rallyX members about a "safety marshal" of sorts during the events.

i think its a great idea.
and yes, it only takes one slip and you're donzo!

thanks for sharing

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'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun

In my opinion, we don't want any oversight on personal/individual safety in the paddock. Recommendations, sure. But to say we have someone who is "responsible" for safety ... what happens when an accident does occur? Liability.

Now I 100% agree that we need rules about pit speeds and reckless behavior. But for us to say that someone is going to be watching over what happens in the paddock between a driver and his/her stuff is a scary thought ... to me.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

That is scary stuff. My Dad had a friend who was killed changing a tire on a boat trailer in a similar manor using only a jack.

I can't say I've never worked on a car supported by just a jack, but like Cline that was only to change brakes...I'd never crawl under a car w/o jackstands. Of course that is kin to saying it would be OK to loose a limb right?

I actually prefer my Rhino ramps when space will allow for the work I'm doing. Even though they are plastic, I think they are very solid. They don't tend to tip or anything or the sort. When they won't get the car high enough I do always use jackstands, but I still don't *like* being under a car. I always feel better when working with someone (vs. alone) just in case something (like a jackstand) were to fail though.

As I've gotten older I do try and do most things more safely in general. I always use eye and ear protection when using tools that require that attire. The ear protection thing was a little late since I'm sure I lost some of my hearing due to excessive loud music in my car. It turns out my Dad was right when he said I'd regret it later in life. Damn kids, can't tell them anything!

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Mike has a good point in terms of liability... I have only functioned within government... I have no idea what the private sector poses.

On a fire we typically work an ICS (Incident Command System) of which everyone has a role to fill, and everyone's role is dependent on another role, so its pretty easy to see where and who dropped the ball...

anyway

We assign Safety Officers to specific Divisions (geographic locations on a map point A to B) Their jobs are to oversee the operations section and make specific reccomendations/briefings on the risks posed that day.

-fire weather forcast
-hydration
-terrain
-fuel's

Accidents do happen, and paperwork is to follow, but just because there is a safety officer doesn't mean it's his/her fault that the accident occurred.

_________________
http://greenjacketracing.blogspot.com/
1987 Mustang GT Track Car-
1999 Toyota Tacoma
1988 BMW 735i 5 speed
1989 BMW 325i running like German Junk
2004 F-350 Super Duty (NC taxpayer owned)

The flip side is if something happens soon that a safety officer might have seen and been able to prevent, the liability is "well, the club has ACTIVELY opposed being safer...just look at this post from a former president!"

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But the reality is that it seems like it would be harder to argue the club was liable for something if the club were doing MORE rather than LESS to be safe. Having a safety officer that misses something certainly makes you no more liable in a suit than having NO safety officer, especially when there's been recorded discussion about it possibly being a good idea *AND* knowing that many other clubs *DO* have safety officers.

The SCCA is more worried about being sued than most entities, and yet not only does the SCCA have safety stewards, they have licensing and training for them. So by your logic, Mike, they are even MORE suit-worthy if something goes wrong than a club that doesn't try. I don't really agree with that, even though I do see where you're coming from.


--Donnie

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My Blog

Reread my sentences, and be careful about what you are trying to say, because you're way out of line here.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Well we want extra eyes. That's what it comes down too. I see your point mike.

I guess it's the same to the person who tech's the cars?

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'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun

What Mike said was my reaction as well. I damn sure wouldn't want to be the officer responsible for the safety of all the idiots that show up to our events.

personally I don't see where the club has any liability for mantenance proceedures you employ on your own car....It appears to me thats on you!!!Some of the worst safety set ups on auto-x courses I've attended were on SCCA run events with a safety steward.....so having one is no guarentee that things will be safe. What it boils down to, is again on you, you are responsible for your own safety. Conversely if you see some one doing something you regard as unsafe, you can recommend that they do it in a safer manner..... you may get told to go to a warm place also. The bottom line again, is each one of us has the responsiblity to be safe, thats called being an adult

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Do you guys think that adressing safety issues during the drivers meeting inadequate??

I new a man that was squished by a car while working under it. He was only using a floor jack in the dirt.

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Silver Honda
Green Ford
Blue/White Suzuki
Red Triumph
Grey BMW

"Never let life be shaped by fear of its end"

No, you're a towel!

Jake didn't ask for someone to be "responsible for safely." Read what HE asked for. And the SCCA "safety steward" isn't "responsible for safety", either. They have a defined set of tasks and things to look out for. Mostly I believe they act as someone you can REPORT safety issues TO and then they know who to address those with. There's no definition you'll find that they are there to INSURE anyone's safety or anything of the sort.

And I'm playing the devil's advocate with my "former president" quote, not trying to imply you don't want safe events, Mike. He asked for "Someone to recognize these risks and kindly offer assistance" and you replied "In my opinion, we don't want any oversight on personal/individual safety in the paddock. Recommendations, sure." Hmm, sounds like you disagree in the first sentence and then agree in the second.

So maybe I actually *don't* understand what you are saying?

Personally, I think the right answer is all the event officers at a THSCC event are "safety stewards" and each person should be told that if they see anything at an event they feel is unsafe, they need to talk to an officer about it. And in the case of someone laying under a car with nothing but a hydraulic jack, they should feel an obligation to ask that person to stop that and offer assistance in finding a jackstand (and then go find an officer if that person refuses...that person should then be required by the officer to stop and any argument should result in expulsion from the event). But now I'm talking about things it sounds like you DON'T want people to do???

Are you really saying an officer can't or shouldn't ask a person to leave if they refuse to stop doing something that's obviously a possible danger to even just themselves?


--Donnie

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My Blog

So where do we draw the line? Do you kick people out of events for not using safety glasses while hitting their lugnuts with a cordless impact gun? What about people who inflate their rear tires to 70 psi cough-TomHoppe-cough to get the car to rotate better? (that's not only a "potential" danger to himself, but to others)

Rallyx attracts a special kind of idiot, and I've seen some crazy shit at them, and of course pointed it out to others so we can laugh at them, but I don't see it as my job to lecture people about their safety (hey, I chopped off the end of my finger doing something stupid to my own car). I see it as natural selection at work. Or if you prefer religion, I see it as your god deciding he doesn't like you anymore.