Somebody Explain this to me?

clinehall · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:10 pm

I think I know the stated reasons why we can't get more diesels into America. But why aren't the green police behind this. Why isn't Anderson Cooper, Dateline, 20/20, the Today show making a clamour about the US public not being able to have high MPG vehicles.

http://jalopnik.com/356497/hypermiling- ... q7-diesels

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:16 pm

Well, my 2 cents is that they are not behind this because it is still a carbon based fuel. That they want to jump directly to electric and bypass other options such as diesel/natural gas. I personally am all for bridge technologies such as the use ultra low sulfur diesel engines.

And frankly, having the "green police" behind this is not going to make it happen. I think the problem continues to be that the entire US is setup for gasoline instead of diesel. If I remember correctly gas here in the US continues to be a better "deal" than diesel while elsewhere it is the opposite. I am not sure how to fix this.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:27 pm

And I forgot to mention that I don't think anyone is preventing manufactures from bringing these diesels to the US. I think both Europe and US are now on similar ultra low sulfer standards now. The idea was to not just lower pollution here in the US, but to allow for ROW models to be brought here to the US.

I think that Honda was set to release a bunch of new diesel models here in the US a year or so ago including a diesel Odyssey which I would have been all over.

But that was when gas prices were high and it looked like it might make economical sense to own a diesel. But then the financial crisis hit, the gas vs. diesel price equation didn't go in the right direction and the US buyer has yet to fall in love with diesels, so Honda canceled the entire thing.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

another issue is that our consumption ratio for gas/diesel fuel is, say, 3:1 (just a made up figure, i've no idea what it actually is) and refineries have been built over the years to provide those fuels in a similar ratio. if passenger cars moved to diesel fuel in significant numbers that ratio might shift to 2:1, increasing the demand for diesel and lowering the demand for gas. which means that diesel would start costing more, and gas less. which would drive consumers to buy more gas cars and fewer diesels, etc, you get the idea.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:40 pm

I think we are saying the same thing in that the US is setup for gas. From the bit I have read, the move to ultra low sulfer diesel ULSD in the US in 2007 was just for cars. But by 2015 new locomotive, marine and truck diesel engines will be required to use the same ULSD spec that is in use for passenger cars today.

My point is that I suspect a small fraction of the US diesel production is ULSD at this point. So it continues to be a niche product. But once the entire nation is pretty much switched over (from a production point of view) to ULSD I suspect the pendulum is going to start swinging from gas to diesel from an economical point of view.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:45 pm

If I remember correctly one of the reasons we don't get diesels here is that we require emissions that are less sooty and so they have a harder time meeting US emissions laws. We are seeing more now because the Europeans found out that their building from the 16th century were not really black, but white covered in diesel soot from the last 100 years and are now cleaning up their soot.

the other reason is that old reason - demand. Gas and Diesel are roughly the same price and there really is not the economic incentive to buy a diesel car. Note when gas was around $4 gal, Prius' sold like crazy. Now, there is inventory.

I could be wrong.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:09 pm

RobLupella wrote:

If I remember correctly one of the reasons we don't get diesels here is that we require emissions that are less sooty and so they have a harder time meeting US emissions laws. We are seeing more now because the Europeans found out that their building from the 16th century were not really black, but white covered in diesel soot from the last 100 years and are now cleaning up their soot.

the other reason is that old reason - demand. Gas and Diesel are roughly the same price and there really is not the economic incentive to buy a diesel car. Note when gas was around $4 gal, Prius' sold like crazy. Now, there is inventory.

I could be wrong.

US diesel emmissions standards have certainly slowed the production of diesel vehicles. just ask Ford and Chevy about their work trucks and the QC issues they now have due to emmissions standards.

and the urea injection currently being imported scares the beajeezus out of me. the smart consumer isn't going to buy a vehicle that has to have an AdBlue flush every 5K to 15K miles depending on the way they drive or where they drive. and forget the used car / out of warranty market when these AdBlue cars come out for resale. can't remember the price, but a quart of this sheist is higher than camel ****. (thanks VK :lol:

)

i do believe the percentage of diesel vehicles to gas vehicles will increase as time wears on, but i don't think we will ever see the numbers seen in Europe. apples and oranges on so many fronts.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:21 pm

I hate the smell, smoke, and sound of diesel.

Have the newest versions really solved those issues? If so, how much maintanance (expensive) is needed to keep the engines civilized.

How about cold start driveability, etc.?

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:36 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

I hate the smell, smoke, and sound of diesel.

Have the newest versions really solved those issues? If so, how much maintanance (expensive) is needed to keep the engines civilized.

How about cold start driveability, etc.?

my Ford is a screaming beast. granted it's a F-350. but it is also 6 years old so not really current technology. no smell, smoke rocks as it only smokes when it's rock'in, and the clatter is less prevalent due to the turbo whine. :twisted:

i've never had an issue with cold-start, and most of what i read on truck forums is positive regarding cold climate performance.

i change the 15 quarts of oil every 5K miles religiously. the adBlue stuff really sounds expensive to me Dick. BMW will cover it for 6 years / 100K but only if you buy their extended maintennance plan. not a cheap plan BTW.

BretLuter · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:04 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

I hate the smell, smoke, and sound of diesel.

Have the newest versions really solved those issues? If so, how much maintanance (expensive) is needed to keep the engines civilized.

How about cold start driveability, etc.?

You must be thinking of a ~82 VW Rabbit diesel.

:shock:

Things have come a longgggg way since then as far as the smell, smoke and sound. Most modern diesel cars are as smooth as gas engines, and the smoke and smell are virtually non-existent. PLUS the diesels are torque monsters.

We rented a Renault Scenic diesel in Spain probably 10 years ago, and it was a little bit rattly, but had tons of power and no smoke or smell- I know things have come a long way since then.

I know when they tested the new BMW 1 series, the diesel-powered version had the best performance times in their track testing.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:39 am

BretLuter wrote:

Things have come a longgggg way since then as far as the smell, smoke and sound. Most modern diesel cars are as smooth as gas engines, and the smoke and smell are virtually non-existent. PLUS the diesels are torque monsters.

x2

"Normal" (meaning non-car-enthusiast) folks who ride in my 2005 TDI Jetta wagon can't tell it's a diesel. Compare that to the non-turbo super-slow 1982-technology 6.2L diesel in my Suburban, and it's a world of difference in power, cold starting, and NVH (the Suburban rattles loudly and is rough, you have to wait a long time for the glow plugs even when it's hot outside, and it is real rough cold-starting in the winter unless you plug in the block heater).

I'm getting 50mpg average in the Jetta. I compare this economy to my old car, a 1995 4-dr Accord 4-cyl 5-spd, which got 33mpg average (same driving route and style). A 2005 Jetta in 4-cyl gas would get similar mileage to the Accord. Based on this, when you figure the higher price of gas vs diesel, the diesel Jetta is still cheaper to drive. Now would it be cheaper than a gas Jetta when you factor in the option price of getting the diesel engine? I don't know, I didn't do that math - I liked the idea of the diesel, of being able to use less fuel, and being able to eventually run biodiesel in it.

The fuel mileage was nice when we used to commute from Mebane to RTP to Cary, and put 45k miles a year on the car.

The Jetta's oil changes are every 10k miles, so that's nice, but you have to also change the fuel filter every 20k miles. (No big deal, but more maintenance than a gasoline engine.) I'm glad we got this car before the newer emissions stuff like DPFs and urea injection came out.

It used to smoke at full throttle when I would "blow it out" about once a week, but quit when I started running B20 from a local station.

It's got 103k miles on it now, and I keep fighting the temptation to put a mild tune in it to up the boost and injector timing, plus remove the muffler and change the air intake. It's so cool how much difference a computer tune makes in a late-model diesel where the boost is computer-controlled!

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:14 am

Were there versions of the VW diesel (early 2000's or so) that needed the intake manifold removed for serious cleaning at fairly low miles (50K or so?)

Is the diesel odor completely gone?

clinehall · **Posted:** Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:12 am

Well, when I am King of the US. We will stop importing oil and become completely energy self sufficiant. We will start usind biofuel extensively.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:20 am

steve remchak wrote:

i change the 15 quarts of oil every 5K miles religiously.

Wow, 15 quarts every 5K miles? Is that the recommended OCI by Ford?

I hate the clatter sound of a diesel more than anything else. However if you need to tow something regularly, the torque is reason enough to buy diesel over gasoline IMO.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Vincent Keene wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

i change the 15 quarts of oil every 5K miles religiously.

Wow, 15 quarts every 5K miles? Is that the recommended OCI by Ford?

I hate the clatter sound of a diesel more than anything else. However if you need to tow something regularly, the torque is reason enough to buy diesel over gasoline IMO.

oh yeah. and a trans flush takes 20 qts. draining the coolant requires a kiddie pool. but my powerstroke excursion tows like a dream, gets nearly 17mpg towing, and i can comfortably sleep in the back.

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