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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:21 pm 
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I HATE hatchbacks!

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BriceJohnson wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the owners manual tells you how to turn a car off, even if it has a start/stop button no matter who makes it or whether you need to press it once or you need to press it to the beat of "shave and a haircut"

That's my point. There should never be a case that you have to read a manual to know how to stop a car engine. It's a potential panic situation, so it should be the same from one car to the next. When you rent a car, do you read the entire manual before driving away from the rental place? I doubt it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:44 pm 
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Dustin Fredrickson wrote:
[
And now we 1) don't have a license, 2) can't afford the insurance to drive, and 3) can't get our cars fixed

Of course, while all these pieces of technology exist today, integrating systems across governments to get to these scenarios is likely problematic and expensive enough to at least slow this process down for a good long while. Or maybe not.

</stirring>


I say not. They will be able to store upload store more and pretty soon we get all those consequences. And while it will be touted as for safety, the real reason will be revenue. Just like the redlight cameras.


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 Post subject: car
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:07 pm 
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our toyota will not even accelerate right now. (bad carbeurator)

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 Post subject: the gtr
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 7:58 pm 
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the new gtr is so smart.. it supposedly knows how to disable the speed limiter, at the track. and go like a animal.If the On-star is so smart, it knows where i am.. would it not accept that i was on track.. Certainly if i had a camaro or corvette. How would they have a basis to shut off my car, if i was on track.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:04 am 
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Vincent Keene wrote:
I'll bet the insurance companies would love to get ahold of some of that black box data.

Let's say one of us take our DD to VIR and does 100+ for a few laps, but on the way home we have a wreck not even due to speed. The black box data get's downloaded and guess what happens next?

<Soup Nazi Voice>

No insurance for you!


Already being done. Some companies are already offering you a discount if you will put one on your 16 year olds car. With the one's I am familiar with the info is only available to the parent, but companies have talked about it for years that it would be great data to determine driving behavior to properly price risks.

One thing, companies are not concerned about HPDE's etc. That is an Urban myth. I saw somebody at the Alfa event with their tag taped over. Nobody is there from an insurance company taking pics except me. What companies look at is what costs them money. HPDE's don't cost them money.

Companies are much more concerned about late night one car accidents, inexperienced drivers with fast street cars,and newly divorced/seperated folks than they are about high performance driving.


I think the black box thing would have more problems then it would be worth for the companies. They would have to do it across the board or it would be discrimination. Who is going to analyze all that data. Installing one everytime Mike Whitney and Jason Tower trade cars would bankrupt a company. Black box jammers would be on the market 10 seconds after they come out.

On a related note, did you know the Buy here Pay here car lots are using GPS with disabling devices? No payment, no car start!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 3:36 pm 
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clinehall wrote:
Vincent Keene wrote:
I'll bet the insurance companies would love to get ahold of some of that black box data.

Let's say one of us take our DD to VIR and does 100+ for a few laps, but on the way home we have a wreck not even due to speed. The black box data get's downloaded and guess what happens next?

<Soup Nazi Voice>

No insurance for you!


Already being done. Some companies are already offering you a discount if you will put one on your 16 year olds car. With the one's I am familiar with the info is only available to the parent, but companies have talked about it for years that it would be great data to determine driving behavior to properly price risks.

One thing, companies are not concerned about HPDE's etc. That is an Urban myth. I saw somebody at the Alfa event with their tag taped over. Nobody is there from an insurance company taking pics except me. What companies look at is what costs them money. HPDE's don't cost them money.

Companies are much more concerned about late night one car accidents, inexperienced drivers with fast street cars,and newly divorced/seperated folks than they are about high performance driving.


I think the black box thing would have more problems then it would be worth for the companies. They would have to do it across the board or it would be discrimination. Who is going to analyze all that data. Installing one everytime Mike Whitney and Jason Tower trade cars would bankrupt a company. Black box jammers would be on the market 10 seconds after they come out.

On a related note, did you know the Buy here Pay here car lots are using GPS with disabling devices? No payment, no car start!



i heave heard about the Buy Here-Pay Here guys using the disabling devices. classic. nobody gets shot at while trying to repo a vehicle. bring in the cash and they turn your car back on. :lol:

i know this is all open discussion but let's remember "we" are the minority. most drivers don't care how they get from point A to point B.

and as for Dick's point, i agree completely. US automakers would have never instituted half the present day safety innovations if they had not been regulated into effect. look at the number of US vehicles that still do not have some form of traction control standard in a base model.

the Europeans are more proactive regarding safety mandates IMO. they at least recognize the number of vehicles on the road is fast approaching too many. and they have reliable mass transit to boot. pedestrian safety seems to be the current emphasis of Euro legislation.

the good news is at least once 2012 occurs us "we" types will be going all Mad Max running amok. legislation be damned. :twisted:

anyone else remember these from Driver's Ed class?

http://www.archive.org/details/Signal301959

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Steve asked if anyone remembered "Signal 30" from driver's ED. Geez Steve, just how old are you???
As a teenage school bus driver, we had to endure this and other films regularly to "put the fear of God into us drivers". I definitely remember being grossed out by the shot of the incinerated man being extracted from a truck-train collision. The film made a point of showing his charred "parts". The communal groan still haunts me. This was lost on the lone female driver in the classroom.
Charlie G

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:21 pm 
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You're just jealous

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The only driver's ed classes I ever had were Bob Bondurant at Sear Point in about 1974 and Skip Barber in 1991. Never saw any of those videos. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:17 pm 
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Charlie Guthrie wrote:
Steve asked if anyone remembered "Signal 30" from driver's ED. Geez Steve, just how old are you???
As a teenage school bus driver, we had to endure this and other films regularly to "put the fear of God into us drivers". I definitely remember being grossed out by the shot of the incinerated man being extracted from a truck-train collision. The film made a point of showing his charred "parts". The communal groan still haunts me. This was lost on the lone female driver in the classroom.
Charlie G



not as old as you Charlie. :twisted:

but as i revisited this video i thought to myself; ugh, the fence board thru the windshield. what a horrible way to go.

point being, as one watches these time honored classics, it is more than obvious that cars have become safer over time. even in 1975 when i first saw these films i felt that things were much different than the scenarios presented. government mandated safety while intrusive is a necessary evil IMO. i think we all know that GM or Ford would have never stopped building the yards of steel land yachts unless the government had stepped in mandating crumple zones and passenger safety features.

seriously, i never used a seatbelt before 1988 or so, when Florida made it a law. stupid? yes, but we are all a product of our own environment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:05 am 
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You're just jealous

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steve remchak wrote:
seriously, i never used a seatbelt before 1988 or so, when Florida made it a law. stupid? yes, but we are all a product of our own environment.


Not necessarily :lol: For some reason I ADDED a lap belt to my 1960 Studebaker Lark in about 1964/65 even though my parents didn't use/have seat belts as I recall. I probably added it to hold me in my seat when attempting to "corner hard" after reading too many sporty car mags. :lol: My first shoulder belt car was a 69 Mustang with separate buckles for each belt.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Honda >> Ford
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Regulators also want standards for

pedal placement - I think they should always be in the footwell

electronic systems - are they talking about those little TV screens in the dashboard? TV screens belong in living rooms.

push-button ignition systems - ban 'em! How many times did I sit there in Shultz's S2000 wondering why it wouldn't start when I turned the key?

and transmission configuration - I recall that we had a laugh over the Prius shift pattern with the mysterious "B" gear. Maybe they'll decide once and for all how paddle-shift automatics should work!

The real problem, my friends, is that we're still driving our cars, and not letting automation operate our cars for us. Or better yet, ditch the cars and take public transportation. As David E. Davis wrote: "Governments detest our cars: They give us too much freedom. How do you control people who can climb into a car at any hour of the day or night and drive to who knows where?"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:07 am 
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steve remchak wrote:

i know this is all open discussion but let's remember "we" are the minority. most drivers don't care how they get from point A to point B.

and as for Dick's point, i agree completely. US automakers would have never instituted half the present day safety innovations if they had not been regulated into effect. look at the number of US vehicles that still do not have some form of traction control standard in a base model.

the Europeans are more proactive regarding safety mandates IMO. they at least recognize the number of vehicles on the road is fast approaching too many. and they have reliable mass transit to boot. pedestrian safety seems to be the current emphasis of Euro legislation.


So you think seatbelts never would have become mainstream without legislation? I wholehearedly disagree. No safety innovations are a consequence of government regulation. Automakers create these things b/c people want them (such as ABS, crumple zones, traction control, etc.). Nobody in congress ever invented a safety feature for a car. I paid extra for side airbags on my car. They weren't a required option by the government, never have been, but somehow they are catching on. If people didn't pay extra for optional safety innovations, I'm not sure Volvo would have ever made it in the US.

All government does is mandate that automakers put these innovations on all cars, eliminating our ability to choose what safety features we feel are worthwhile and which ones aren't while adding unneccesary cost to the car for many people. They are also here stepping into automotive design (pedal placement) which they should stay out of. Engineers put the pedals where they do on purpose. They know what they are doing better than congress. Anyone who thinks Toyota wouldn't have done anything about the recent problem without intervention by the Feds is deluding themselves. Toyotas sales, and their reputation got bludgeoned by this whole thing, and they, as well as other manufacturers have taken notice. You can be sure they will implement the necessary changes to prevent it from re-occuring, govt intervention of not. A profit motive is a powerful thing.

I don't think traction control should be madnated, b/c its a useless feature to me. First thing I do when I get in the MINI is to turn DSC off. Tire pressure monitors are a worthless feature to me, and soemthing I don't want to pay for. I've got them on two cars. On my mazda, they are constantly a source of leaks. On the MINI, they are a constant source of false alarms, making me pull over, check the pressure, and reset them.

You can call me the minority here, but where does it stop? Its a lot safer for us to all have runflat tires. It would have prevented the whole Explorer/Firestone tire deal. It'd be a lot safer for us to all have 100 hp 4-cylinder enignes (and a lot greener too). Lets mandate that. Its all where you draw the line.

As I said in my earlier post, pedestrian safety is definitely a different issue. Items that enhance the safety of OTHERS on the road may need some legislation to help implement as there is no great incentive to do so, and an externality created.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:30 am 
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While I am a free market guy I kind of go the route of "some government intervention" on this issue. While the free market brought us all these innovations, if we didn't have mandated safety requirements somebody would be building a crap box and selling to the poorest of the poor (just look in 3rd world countries now) and the resulting injuries and deaths would not be tolerable.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:04 am 
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the problem i see with paying for safety is the manufacturer's penchant for using this as a marketing tool Brice.

Volvo has always sold to the more educated people of the world in their marketing plan. smart people pay to be safe. sadly as Cline has mentioned the stupid and the poor suffer. why should safety be an option? options are profit for the car makers.

prime example, Kia puts a USB port / i-pod connection in their first level car as a standard option. $25k car. BMW charges $400 for the same item. $45k car. constant cost between the two manufacturers i'm sure but profit for one and not the other. they have to make their money somewhere.

and no, i'm sorry to say i do not believe seatbelt usage would be so mainstream without laws to enforce citizens to use them.

the passage of the law and the education that follows leads to mainstream compliance. look at DUI laws and enforcement. it is only in the last 25 years or so that DUI laws have been a no-tolerance type enforcement.

did you really say you turn off DSC Brice? why?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:41 pm 
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You're just jealous

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Tough time to use Volvo's safety history as "proof" that safety leadership sells. Doesn't sell too well . . . Volvo was just sold to the Chinese. :cry:

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