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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:02 pm 
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Don't know if this would help/hurt when going to court. I might be watching to much CSI on TV. :lol:

But you may consider having someone take a photo of you in the car with your belt on, view from officers direction, same clothes, etc.. This is on the assumption that it might be hard to tell when you have the belt on. Did you have a shirt or coat that might hide the sholder part of the belt? Could the color of the belt blend in with the seat, or B pillar? Was the officer looking at you through the driver side or through the passenger side. Stuff like that. Assuming this info would work in your favor. ;)

Honestly, I don't know how they can see if people have their belts on or not without really being close to the car. I think you can see belts at times, but I guess there is probably lots of times that people are wearing belts and you just can't see them very well.

As a parent, I think they need to focus on finding people driving around with their kids not in child seats, or belted if they are old enough for regular seats.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:30 pm 
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This raises the bigger question of seatbelt laws in general. Am I the only person who feels seatbelt laws are a threat to the very core principle of liberty that this nation was founded upon? I'm not referring to child seat laws, but specifically personal use seat belt laws.

This should be an interesting discussion...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:48 pm 
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Are you the only one? No. But I do feel that sometimes people need to be protected from their own stupidity, and sometimes a $75 ticket is just the kick in the jockey shorts that people need.

Also, I don't think that people should have the (fingerquote) right (/fingerquote) to make themselves be a projectile in the case of an accident and either a) have their unbelted body propel into me/my car or b) cause such a huge mess that it results in me waiting behind a huge traffic jam for all of the lookie-loos to stare at the blood seeping through white sheets on the side of the road.

:rant:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:48 pm 
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Let me kick this off with my position. Allthough I can probably count the number of times I've been in a running car without a seatbelt on in the past 19 years on one hand, I think it is your god given right to be stupid enough to ride around in a car without one and no government official should have the right to tell you that you must wear one. In fact, I encourage stupid people everywhere to not where their seat belts, let natural selection take its course hopefully before you have a chance worry about child seats in your car. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:55 pm 
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Les, I'm basically on your side on this one (and I think we've had conversations along this vein before). Having moved here from New Hampshire (state motto: "Live Free Or Die"), the only state in the nation not to have yet knuckled under to Federal pressure to enact mandatory seatbelt laws, I am strongly inclined to believe in people's freedom to do what they want, even if it's self-destructive, as long as it doesn't impact other people's lives.

But that's the rub. When a bozo without a seatbelt gets into an accident, their injuries are likely to be much greater than they would've been had they had it on. No problem (for you and me) if the person is able to pay their increased medical expenses out of their own funds. But if they don't have adequate insurance (and it seems the dumbest people don't), then their care comes at taxpayer expense. Even if they are well-insured, the extra cost comes out of the insurance company's pool, which ends up raising rates for everyone- same deal. So multiply that by the number of idiots in your area, and your share of the bill really starts to add up. As you can see, allowing some kinds of risky behaviors does end up affecting other people's lives.

So the question becomes, "how much is it worth to you to keep these freedoms?" Especially when they're freedoms that you're not personally likely to use, but those who do will end up raising your taxes and insurance rates?

You and I, Les, would probably quote a figure quite a bit higher than the national average. But that puts us in the minority, and in a democracy laws are (supposedly) written to accede to the wishes of the majority.

The required public service campaign to remind Americans of the patriotic value of their personal liberties is a whole lot bigger issue... :leave:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:57 pm 
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Nothing like conversations on politics (and cheater tires) to stir people up. Civil liberties have come into greater scrutiny (particularly gun laws) largely for one reason: there's little to no accountability today. If you slip and hurt yourself at the grocery store, it can't be your fault...go sue someone and get rich. This necessitates seatbelt laws, waivers of all sorts and so on. Just means that to protect yourself, you need to push for policing and laws that intrude on everyone's liberties.

go anarchy! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:18 pm 
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Carl Fisher wrote:
But that's the rub. When a bozo without a seatbelt gets into an accident, their injuries are likely to be much greater than they would've been had they had it on. No problem (for you and me) if the person is able to pay their increased medical expenses out of their own funds. But if they don't have adequate insurance (and it seems the dumbest people don't), then their care comes at taxpayer expense. Even if they are well-insured, the extra cost comes out of the insurance company's pool, which ends up raising rates for everyone- same deal. So multiply that by the number of idiots in your area, and your share of the bill really starts to add up. As you can see, allowing some kinds of risky behaviors does end up affecting other people's lives.


I've seen research quoted that says seatbelt versus no seatbelt is basically a statistical wash on the money side for insurance companies. Why? Because if fewer people wear seatbelts, more people just *die* in accidents rather than having injuries that they survive.

But legislators then contend that "good, we didn't care about money anyway, we care about *saving lives*" when in reality they only care about the revenue those tickets generate.

Which is all hooey to me since the next thing they'll want to do is legislate away Coke machines. After all, eleven people per year (or some such annoying number) die trying to shake them so drinks fall out. *sigh*

To me it should be enough for the federal government to legislate our cars be built with safety in mind, including personal safety devices. They can even legislate that school systems are *required* to teach us about said equipment, including how and *why* to properly use them (including child safety seats...teach people early!). But they shouldn't tell me what *I* have to do, even if there were some statistical reason why insurance costs more for everyone. I mean if that were the only reason then let's raise the driving age to 18. Or 20. I think we'd all agree that increasing the average maturity level of drivers would cause fewer accidents. Okay, I believe that last statement, and I *still* don't support the driving age change. I would support more required education for drivers, though.

I'm a motorcyclist who also does *not* support helmet laws, though I'd never ride a bike without one. There's definitely data there that shows insurance costs are *increased* due to helmet laws because more people survive bike accidents with them, whereas most die without them. Motorcycles are definitely an area where more education is needed. Dealers also shouldn't be allowed to sell them to people with no motorcycle license. At the very least they shouldn't be allowed to ride them off the showroom floor when they purchase! But they are...and go ask Barnette's Suzuki how many Hayabusa's out of the first twelve they sold were not totalled in the first two weeks of each bike's life. I think it was one. Two of them happened within a mile of their store or something. None of the riders had test ridden the bike (few motorcycle dealers allow that anyway) and I'm fairly certain only two or three of that twelve even had motorcycle licenses. No one wants to point that kind of thing out to legislators, though, because we'd just end up with horsepower limits or something similarly stupid.

I'm rambling now. Must stop. I just think we need smarter laws. Which would result in fewer laws.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:44 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
But you may consider having someone take a photo of you in the car with your belt on, view from officers direction, same clothes, etc.. This is on the assumption that it might be hard to tell when you have the belt on. Did you have a shirt or coat that might hide the sholder part of the belt? Could the color of the belt blend in with the seat, or B pillar? Was the officer looking at you through the driver side or through the passenger side. Stuff like that. Assuming this info would work in your favor. ;)


Unfortunately I have considered all of this and none of it is really in my favor. The interior of my car is all black, seatbelts included, my shirt was yellow. The cop was viewing my car from the passenger side....how he missed the belt, I have no clue. The only thing I really have is...the sun is coming from his backside and I am guessing creating quite a glare on my windshield, so how he could have seen inside the car, I don't know. The commanding officer suggested that I consider the officer's view point and that the things they look for are the belt coming over the shoulder, and if that isn't there, the belt buckle...the chrome part showing on the belt on the B pillar. I got in the car and looked....even if I hadn't been wearing the belt....the chrome part on the belt side (over my left hand shoulder) drops below my back so he wouldn't have seen it one way or the other. I plan on taking pictures of all of this for my court appearance, but how much will it help? I don't know. I guess I will just have to roll the dice and see. At this point...the time I have spent thinking about it out weighs a $75 dollar fine. I think it will still be worth it if I win though just to "beat the system". Not a big fan of "the man".

In regards to the law itself....I think it is BS. If someone wants to take the gamble and not wear the belt...by all means, I agree with Les, let natural selection take care of them. You can't help people that don't help themselves, the chances of people riding in a car that doesn't have seatbelts these days is slim to none....it isn't a sunroof folks, it isn't an option on the car, they are there for a reason...pay attention.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:53 pm 
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Personaly, I don't think raising the driver maturity level would help, because you not raising the maturity of the driver's ability, but the maturity of the driver. What is needed is better driving instructors like the ones I had in Montana when I was 14 it was like a giant autocross. We were taught evasive manuvers on pavement and gravel, as well as how to control the car in a skid and how to try and keep the center of the car the center. here all I've seen or heard about them doing is putting the kid behind the wheel and making him drive around the city. sure normal driving is hazardous but what do you do when something happens in front of you? the local answer seems to be slam on the brakes and slide the car into what ever is in front of you. (Passed too many wrecks around here) as far a seat belts I think it should be our choice wether to wear it or not, considering I got a seatbelt ticket sitting in the car on the side of the road with the engine shut off..... go figure.. but I got lucky and it was thrown out of court after I explained why I didn't have it on... well duh the wrecker bill showed that.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:29 am 
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Stephen Westerfield wrote:
[The interior of my car is all black, seatbelts included, my shirt was yellow. The cop was viewing my car from the passenger side....how he missed the belt, I have no clue.


I don't know. Viewing the driver position of a moving car through the passenger side with potential glare on windows, etc. And with the potential for your right arm/sleeve (hands on the wheels) to cover much of your upper chest. I can see how he could have missed it.

And yes, I do watch Perry Mason on TV.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:11 am 
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Several good points of view on this discussion! I agree with Les in that to wear or not to wear should be your choice, not a mandate by the government. I always wear mine, but not because of a stupid law. They do save lives and I'm fond of mine!

I still shake my head when I hear people said that so-and-so would have died if they *had* worn the belt. What are the odds of that? My friend flipped his '98 Maxima at about 60 MPH (end over end), but he was wearing his seatbelt. When the car came to rest on it's roof, both airbags had deployed and he found he and his passenger hanging upside down by the belts. He unbuckled and climbed out the shattered back window. He and the passenger were bruised pretty good by the belts, but that was a small price to pay when the car was totaled (it was 3 months old BTW) and he was otherwise OK.

I also agree with Donnie that they can put what ever spin on it, but it all comes back to the almighty dollar. Doesn't everything?

Dale also makes a good point that raising the age limit wouldn't really accomplish much. I was just as stupid at 18 as I was at 16, but maybe that's just me. My niece will get her license in less than 30 days and it worries me. Thinking you know everything is worse than knowing you don't! Sure she can drive OK on the county roads near home with 10 cars on the road, but what about a concert trip down I-85 to Charlotte? Traveling 80MPH on the interstate, with cars on each side, people tailgating, and talking on the phone at her experience level...now that's scary. I wouldn't ride with her!

I learned quite a bit (more than I even thought I needed to) in five years of autocross. It's taught me a great deal about everyday driving. Looking ahead should be stressed in Driver's Ed at least as much as we stress turning early in autocross!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:29 pm 
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Just remember Steve.... Make sure all the pictures you take of your car are looking through a doughnut hole. Make sure the court was seeing what the officer was seeing.
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[Johhny Cochrane Voice] If you can't see SH*T, you Must Acquit[/endJC]

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Another thing the officer looks for is that blinking red light on the dashboard. Notice how those thing are moving up higher and higher?
I really think that in this case it was a BS ticket, he may have thought you looked like a druggy or he just doesn't like the color of your car. Unless he pulled up right beside you to confirm you didn't have it on he shouldn't have written a ticket.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:45 pm 
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I wonder if a trip to speak to one of the assistant district attorneys would help? Thats what I did with two of my speeding tickets and they were very helpful (although I wasn't trying to get them dropped completely...just looking for improper equipment without having to pay a lawyer.)

Quote:
Oops! I'm not sure that "Ahmet" from Cary was actually pulled over in Cary. Plus, reading his posts on Corner Carvers, I'm also not sure his stop was "trumped up".

I read that story on another forum...It was Hillsboro St. in Raleigh I believe.

As far as the seatbelt stuff goes, I think that the medical bills are only a small part of it. Normal "pain and suffering" claims are usually around three times the cost of the medical bills, and the lawsuit for a death can amount to millions of dollars. So, while there might not be any medical costs for someone that dies, it will still cost the insurance companies a lot of money. I'm all for seatbelt laws...Thats one case where I think people need to realize that driving is a priveledge, not a right (as lame as that sounds.)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:59 pm 
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Here is another tip on the ticket. My wife got one in Cary. She actually had her belt on , removed it for a minute to adjust some clothing, put it back on, and the cop got her. We paid the ticket :furious: . Several months later we noticed the check had not been cashed. It has been over a year and the check still has not been cashed.

I agree with Les et al that seat belts should be up to the individual's idiocy, but for the issues of insurance rates if indeed there are any data that show that rates for all are not based on awards for accidents


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