Toyota and "unintended acceleration"

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:49 am

Is this the Audi 5000 all over again? I have really not followed this, but am getting mildly curious. I can see how a floor mat can get over a pedal and confuse a driver. There is still the point that you should be able to just push on the brakes and stop the car at any time. I expect there is a large percentage of the population that just doesn't under stand that.

What I find interesting is all of the reports of the brakes not working. I tend to attribute this to the type of people who drive into convenience stored by hitting the gas instead of the brake. Later they swear they were pushing the brake pedal as hard as they could, but the car was taking off like a rocket. Other than the floor mat issue, I sort of get the impression that Toyota doesn’t know what is going on, which adds to the argument that this is all “pilot error”. But could there be something else going on here?

I know some (all?) of these cars might be using a drive by wire throttle. I think I also have heard that Toyota has had some issues with their drive by wire throttle. The only way I can see the brakes not working would be some type of ABS failure (that would somehow reduce fluid pressure). But I think many of these modules are independent and don’t talk to each other? However if you start to include things like traction and stability control (that use ABS to apply brakes to each wheel independently of the driver) then maybe the ABS module is talking to the rest of the car. Even if they do talk to each other, I suspect they are just independent modules running their own code, but would also have a clear interface (list of commands it expects to get from an external system). I find it hard to imagine that there would be some type of catastrophic software failure of the drive by wire throttle that ends up telling the ABS to prevent the brakes from working! Sound like the plot to a bad James Bond movie to me.

Semi related odd thing happened to me a few weeks ago. I was driving back from Ohio and was using cruise control and running at about 75. I tapped the brakes to disengage (due to traffic), then hit the resume button a handful of seconds later to reengage and was already traveling at about 75. It accelerated hard up to about 85-90 all on its own. I didn’t freak as I knew I could stop it at any time by hitting the brakes, turn off the engine, etc. There was no traffic, so I let it do it’s thing just to see what would happen. It hit its peak and then pretty quickly settled back down to the set 75 MPH. That is the only odd thing I have had happen to me in this or any car with respect to “unintended acceleration”.

Gwen Habenicht · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:20 pm

I listened to one of those 911 calls on the news from a man who ultimately died in the crash of his Toyota. The big question would be, if he had time to call 911, saying he had no brakes, and was going faster and faster, why didn't he turn off the ignition key? I questioned that maybe some cars can't be turned off while underway, so I tried it (in our long driveway) yesterday in my Navigator. Difficult to steer, and the steering wheel would probably lock if you turned it hard enough, but otherwise, better than a fiery death from that high speed crash. Please explain.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:31 pm

Gwen Baake wrote:

I listened to one of those 911 calls on the news from a man who ultimately died in the crash of his Toyota. The big question would be, if he had time to call 911, saying he had no brakes, and was going faster and faster, why didn't he turn off the ignition key? I questioned that maybe some cars can't be turned off while underway, so I tried it (in our long driveway) yesterday in my Navigator. Difficult to steer, and the steering wheel would probably lock if you turned it hard enough, but otherwise, better than a fiery death from that high speed crash. Please explain.

It was a Lexus with a push button start/stop. The issue is that Toyota/Lexus ignition requires you to hold it for 3 continuous seconds to shut the car off. If you push the button rapidly, it won't do anything. Nissan's will turn off with repeated button pressing.

I do wonder why the dude didn't put it into neutral, but that may not have seemed obvious in a panic situation.

The interesting thing is how good this makes Hyundai look like a peach. The fact that the product they are putting out is really nice now doesn't hurt much either. - AB

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:37 pm

From what I understand, Toyota/Lexus has also not provided this shut-off procedure to the owners until after this problem has occured.

The really sad thing, is that button was a solution looking for a problem, that has cost someone their life.

Richard, the vacuum assist of brakes is depleted very quickly when an engine is under power and there's not as much vacuum available. Given that and the increase in horsepower of today's cars, I can see the loss of brakes occuring. Try left foot braking a turbo-charged car and you'll see what I mean.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:00 pm

One reason Toyota gives for steady brake pressure versus pumping them is vacuum depletion as Jason says.

FYI on another forum, one or two guys with actual industry drive by wire experience indicated that they typically see all sorts of fail safe over rides. They wonder why those didn't do the job or weren't in place.

FYI I saw a YouTube interview with a guy in his 40's who experienced this and drove to the dealership with the brakes smoking, etc. and the engine racing (on rev limiter maybe?).

Dick

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

From http://jalopnik.com/5459053/timeline-to ... -nightmare

RayMetts · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:51 pm

I read somewhere that in some of the crashed vehicles, the floormats were found in the trunk of the car, so that was ruled out in some of the cases. Can't remember the link though.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

RayMetts wrote:

I read somewhere that in some of the crashed vehicles, the floormats were found in the trunk of the car, so that was ruled out in some of the cases. Can't remember the link though.

12/26/09 in the pic above

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:56 pm

Jason Mauldin wrote:

Richard, the vacuum assist of brakes is depleted very quickly when an engine is under power and there's not as much vacuum available. Given that and the increase in horsepower of today's cars, I can see the loss of brakes occuring. Try left foot braking a turbo-charged car and you'll see what I mean.

I was not aware of the vacuum assist issue. Is that more of a problem if you try to pump the brakes? I still keep thinking that if you give it one good push and hold it that it should stop. I can see people not pushing hard enough, pumping, etc and then overheating the brakes to the point that they no longer work.

I think I read that someone did shift into neutral, but didn't like how the engine revved up so high, so put it back into gear. :roll:

The zip ties on the Jalopnik timeline is a nice touch.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:19 pm

Crossroads Ford is offering an additional $1000 to Toyota owners looking to trade. priceless. :lol:

jakepressley · **Posted:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:36 am

On that note Steve... its been discussed that this blown way out of the water by the government in an effort to sell more (Government Motors) cars. That Toyota was forced into this under a threat that Governments consequences would of been greater.

Then again let me put on my friggin tin foil hat... cause people did die

Thought it was interesting though

steve remchak · **Posted:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:17 am

jakepressley wrote:

On that note Steve... its been discussed that this blown way out of the water by the government in an effort to sell more (Government Motors) cars. That Toyota was forced into this under a threat that Governments consequences would of been greater.

Then again let me put on my friggin tin foil hat... cause people did die

Thought it was interesting though

conspiracy theories Jake? pretty sure Chevys are not flying off the showroom floor because of this.

of course Toyotas are flying off the road due to this little miscalculation.

let's not forget the Ford Exploder era.

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:17 am

steve remchak wrote:

Crossroads Ford is offering an additional $1000 to Toyota owners looking to trade. priceless. :lol:

GM is doing the same nationwide. Nothing like taking advantage of someoneelse's misfortune!!!

RobLupella · **Posted:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:18 am

jakepressley wrote:

On that note Steve... its been discussed that this blown way out of the water by the government in an effort to sell more (Government Motors) cars. That Toyota was forced into this under a threat that Governments consequences would of been greater.

Then again let me put on my friggin tin foil hat... cause people did die

Thought it was interesting though

Anything that promotes American cars and jobs over the commie stuff that is over-rated and takes away American Jobs and money is a welcome thing.

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:20 am

But weren't the Japanese and Korean automakers the biggest winners in the Cash for Clunkers program. Sounds like that gubment plan backfired. Maybe this is their "fix"?

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Toyota and "unintended acceleration"

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