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Hi all -

Charlie and I are thinking about buying a track car and have found a 2000 Honda Civic SI we are thinking about purchasing.

My question is - does anyone have experience with the SI's racing? I don't see alot of them out there on the track so I'm just curious as to what folks in the club know / feel about them as a track car.

Thanks - any input is appreciated.

Mo

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Mo Monroe
Go Pack!

Are we talking about doing HPDEs, or going wheel to wheel?

Is the car in question already a track car, or is it a street car?

There have been a handful of 99-00 Civic Sis built over the years - I've even driven one. Somewhat similar to an Integra I'd say. Similar size and weight. Those motors are 1.6L VTEC motors. There's no torque to speak of - all the power is way up high.

Getting the suspension set up to get it to corner well will be easy. Minor differences to part numbers versus an Integra, but the concepts will be the same.

If you're after a Honda as a track car, I'd suggest finding an Integra GS-R. Suspension layout is basically the same. Weight should be pretty similar, depending of course on how much of the interior / AC / etc. you leave in it. The Integra has a 1.8L engine, so while it still doesn't have much torque, it has more than the 1.6, and the area under the horsepower curve will be a little more favorable. Integras are probably easier to find as well.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Thanks Karl - appreciate the quick response.

I forgot to mention that this will have to be a daily driver as well. So we are talking about using the car as a daily driver and HPDE at a beginner level.

The car in question is a pure stock set up currently.

Thanks -

Mo

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Mo Monroe
Go Pack!

Well, first of all, if you've found a totally stock, unmolested, 2000 Civic Si, you've found a rare example of a dying breed. If it's straight, in good shape, and inexpensive, you could probably flip it if you decide it's not for you.

It's got the potential to be a great dual duty street/track car. Sort of depends on what you want, and what you're willing to spend on it (as with all things).

In stock form, compared to your CS Miata, you're going to find the handling a little uninspiring. Lots, and lots, of understeer, with little to no way to force the car into rotation. Think of it this way - the Civic will probably go 0-60 a little faster than your Miata will. Yet the Civic is an HS car, and the Miata is a CS car.

The engine revs to over 8000RPM, and there's not much going on until at least 5000RPM. 111 lb-ft of torque isn't very much to lug around a roughly 2600lb car.

If you end up wanting to modify it, a suspension setup similar to an ST Civic (or STS CRX like the car Feinberg used to have) would be the direction I'd point you in. Konis, huge rear swaybar, linear rate springs with stiffer rates in the rear than in the front. Fiddle with the ride height until you get a decent amount of negative camber, but not so much that you're on the bump stops mid corner.

It'll be quite reliable. Keep after the brakes - they're pretty small, and the fronts are going to be doing nearly all of the work.

As far as things to look for - make sure the timing belt has been replaced. If the car doesn't have records, check for valvetrain noise, and if you can, check compression on it for bent valves. These are interference engines, so if the timing belt snaps, valves collide with pistons.

Tell me more about what you think you want out of the car - or any track day car, for that matter - and I'll see if I can help some more.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Ah, one of my favorite hobbies - spending other people's money

A coworker had a 99 Civic Si, and I've driven it a couple of times. The car was stolen and stripped to a shell a couple of years ago, and unfortunately, that's all too common for that car.

I agree with basically everything that Karl says about the car. It is absolutely necessary to drive the car like you hate it to get any type of speed out of it. It's sprung fairly softly from the factory, so suspension upgrades are necessary in order to keep it from plowing like a tractor. With appropriate suspension\tire upgrades, that car can be a handling star.

My major disappointment with that car was the brakes. The braking feel wasn't very good, and I've seen other reviews of the car that concur. It also just doesn't have much in the way of rotor mass. Good pads and fluid, and possibly even brake ducts will go a long way, but that car will always be under braked with the factory setup.

Though unlikely with a car that has seen life as a street car, some high mileage b16 motors have a tendency to "oval" out the cylinders, resulting in poor compression, excessive oil usage, and poor power. Again, this is unlikely to be an issue with a street car, but Civic Si's that have seen lots of high RPM duty, like a Showroom Stock racer, are prone to this.

Honestly, put a Harddog roll bar (or a Chris Schimmel bar) in your CS Miata, and I believe you already own a better track car than a stock Civic Si. I understand that you may not want to use that car in that capacity, but stock for stock, I'd say it's superior. IIRC, you guys also have an NA Miata (unless it's been sold). I'd say the same about that car vs the Si.

In this market, it seems reasonably easy to find someone else's "built" track car. Finding something that already has some suspension work, a roll bar, and possibly seats/harnesses seems like a good option. The downsides are harsness in a daily driver role, and hidden wear/tear problems that the seller may be hiding.

Depending on budget, I might suggest anything from an e30 to an RX-8.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

I think they are very cool cars, but there are plenty of other good cars in that price range.

Have you considered a Celica (GT or GTS). I know an expert on these cars, and he's right around the corner from you.

Of course, years ago Tom Freeman was looking at the Celica as a track car and I told him to buy a Miata. I know he didn't regret the decision. I'd likely tell you the same thing (but, if you want a FWD car, the Celica is an OK candidate). You will *NEED* an Accusump if you run a Celica, and if you install one ($300 ish) it should be reliable, as long as you don't shift it from 3rd to 2nd gear when you really needed 4th.

As a daily driver, the Celica is really good.

Scott

The 2000 Civic is the same generation as the 1998 Civic that is still my daily driver and one time autocross car. I had a great time autocrossing my Civic and considered buying a 99/00 Si a number of times, but they didn't depreciate much due to their general rarity. I also kick myself for not buying one new back in the day. I ended up buing the used 1998 instead. As Karl mentions above, it is extremely hard to find a 99/00 Si that not already all “riced” up. I would still love to have a relatively stock example even today, but I am not in the market for another car.

Also prior the the Pontiac Solstice showing up, the 99/00 Civic Si was the car to have for Showroom Stock B SCCA road racing.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Under hard track use doesn't the b16a have a good possibility of ovaling the cylinders?

You're the second person to mention this, but I'm unfamiliar with the issue. Oscar White has a built B16 in his red CRX that has untold thousands of track miles on it, and he's not had any problems, nor has he ever heard of this (I just talked with him on the phone about it).

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Isn't Honda a pioneer in oval piston/cylinder technology?

I know that Tom Hoppe & Ian Stewart both had this happen to their '99-'00 Civic Si's. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

FWIW, that was the same car. Tom bought it and then sold it to Ian.

Mo, why not just run the red 99 that you bought from Jim? It already has a roll bar in it, or so I thought.

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2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

Wait, are we talking about that red Showroom Stock (B? C?) car? Do we have any idea how many hours were on the motor when it started to do this ovaling thing? Was the Hoppe/Stewart problem an outlier, or is this a systemic failure?

Would this problem even surface on a car that's being used around town and for a few HPDEs/year, anyway?

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I've never heard of it. Neither has Oscar.

Might not matter. I think an Integra (assuming you can find a decent one) would make a slightly more satisfying car to drive. The torque difference between the 1.6 and the 1.8 is something you're going to notice, even if it's merely "a tiny amount of torque" versus "no torque whatsoever."

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Keith - we weren't sure of the job situation around Christmas so we had to sell the red one (in hind site, we really wish we hadn't!).

Thanks to everyone for all the input - and based on all the great advice we have decided to add a roll bar to the current Miata.

We have to look at seats as well - both Charlie and I have problems fitting under the roll bar with the current seats. In fact, we looked at Marty's race Miata that he is selling and even with his race seats we were both off by 1/4 inch.

But the real bottom line is that we will most likely need two track cars anyway (with one of them being Charlie's daily driver) so converting the Miata as the first step (rather than the second step) seems to make sense.

So hopefully, if all goes well, I'll be out at CMP and if Charlie finds a car by then he will too.

Again - thanks much to all for the advice - and I'm sure we will be posting asking more questions as we start learning more.

Mo

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Mo Monroe
Go Pack!

I think a '95 M3 would be a great out-of-the-box daily driver and safe track car. Plenty can be had for under $7k. May need a few more $$ to get track ready than a newere Civic, but potentially more reliable once it's there.

Here's one, without a lot of details, for $6995. Thought I saw another one but it's gone now.

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ctd/1165346488.html

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1