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 Post subject: Heel-Toe
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:27 pm 
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So how did you learn how to Heel-Toe or how would you teach me (I know a challenge). I have tried watching it on you tube but can't find anything that clicks in my brain. I wanna try to get it down or at least do it badly before VIR Full in Dec. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Hah! You had to ask, didn't you? :D You're going to probably get a lot of different responses.

Heel-Toe is a misnomer - you are not really executing that kind of physical input. It's a term that is a throw back to when the activity started and the vehicles driven then. Think of it instead as a "brake n blip". You're braking the car and at the same time your blipping the throttle to get the engine speed to match the car's velocity when you go to a lower gear. You're doing all the braking and throttle blipping with your right foot and clutching with the left foot.

How you do it depends on your pedal set geometry and your feet. I assume in your case, your talking about for a Miata. I put the ball of my right foot on the upper right hand corner of the brake pedal for the braking. To blip the throttle while braking, I roll my right foot/ankle outward so that the outside of my foot catches the side of the throttle for the blip. I time the shift so that I am releasing the clutch with the shifter in the lower gear position when the motor rpm has already peaked and is on its way down.

It's a timing thing that you have to work out. If done right it should be smooth - you shouldn't feel it. If you let the clutch out at a little too low an rpm, you'll hear the tires chirp a little. Even more later, your drive linewill seem to lock up and you'll slide until you get the engine rpms back up or get the clutch back in to recover. If you saw me spin out taking the green flag at CMP in the Saturday TT, you saw what happens if you really mis-match the rpm badly. :)

Remember, think more about what you're trying to get the car to do - not the actual body mechanics. Each car/driver has its own unique pedal geometry/driver input requirements. Also some pedal set geometry will not permit H&T. Some pedal sets can be modded to permit H&T.

Good Luck!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:44 pm 
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The lightbulb moment for me came when watching this (thanks to VK for sending the link):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ULS7pnxyg

I thought I knew "heel-toe" because I had taught myself to do a full "double-declutch" in a VW GTI with no 2nd gear synchro (clutch in, stick to neutral, clutch out, rev-match, clutch in, shift down) - waaaay too slow on track.

I couldn't get the timing right for the proper heel-toe at my first event, and just tabled it until I could practice more on the street.

Watch the video closely - the thing to notice is the near perfect timing of the blip right as the clutch goes in, so the revs are matched to the next gear down as soon as the clutch goes out.

Also- I put OMP 1000 pedals in my car, and spaced up the brake pedal quite a bit higher than stock. The stock pedals are nearly perfect for heel-toe on the street, but when I really stood on the brakes, the pedal went way too low to effectively blip the throttle. Now it is right there during maximum braking.

I am still far from having it down - practice, practice, practice :)

Hmmm - I think I'll do Dec VIR 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Kevin makes a lot of good points. One thing that came to mind...I remember working a station with you before I moved up to MD, and I seem to remember you had a bad knee. Depending on which knee it is might make heel toe a little more difficult.

I recommend this to start with - learn to rev-match without braking first. It's easier to do on the street, and it helps with timing a lot.

Do this somewhere with very little traffic so you won't have any stress or danger. Start with 4 to 3 downshifts first. Cruising along in 4th gear, do this in order...
- press clutch
- downshift
- give the throttle a quick blip to get the revs up
- let out on the clutch quickly, but smoothly

The idea is that the engine speed will already be where it needs to be - you're matching what RPM the engine would turn at that speed in 3rd gear, before you engage 3rd.

When you do it right, your downshift will be very smooth - it won't upset the car - no bucking back and forth. Once you get 4-3 smooth and comfortable, start practicing 3-2.

When you have the feel down of rev matching, it makes the whole concept of heel-toe work a lot easier when you add in the braking.

Having pretty small feet, I have a tough time doing heel-toe in most cars. I generally install aftermarket pedals to decrease the distance between the brake and the gas on my cars. I usually buy OMP aluminum pedal covers - about $40 and relatively easy to install. I put a set on the former Holton Miata when it was mine, and I have a set on the current 944. They aren't super-blingtastic, but they work well. I believe that Vincent has a set on his Cavalier. There are lots of ways to skin this cat...this is just the one I chose.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:31 am 
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Kevin is correct IMO that the classic H-T would be very difficult in a Miata. Rolling the side of the right foot (like the video Kendt linked to)would most likely work best for you.

There are two issues with most cars IMO. The biggest one is the relationship of the brake pedal's height in relation to the gas pedal under hard braking. If the brake is way lower than the gas pedal it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to roll the side of your foot on the gas pedal. Second (as Tom mentioned) the pedals are often not close enough together to make rolling the foot work because you can't reach the gas pedal. Buying a $40 set of OMP pedals helps with both these issues greatly. You can postion the brake pedal closer to the gas and also raise it as Kendt did to accomodate H-T. BTW, they sell them at the VIR pro shop for that $40 price too.

I agree that you should start by learning to "rev-match" on the street to get a feel for what you are trying to do. I'll bet Dustin can H-T and can teach it to you pretty easily. Keep in mind you need to practice it OVER and OVER to get good at it. Every downshift in your Miata on the street is an opportunity to learn it. Once you can do it and not have to think about it...lesson learned.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:54 am 
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I like watching videos of people Heel Toeing. That's what finally made it click in my head.

Mark Skaife (Aussie V8's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXLTjDVgWc

Mark Skaife #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I

Mark Skaife #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqE ... re=related

Unknown Guy with old skool Pumas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR3LOl19G70

Ayrton Senna in loafers!! FTW!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg

You will notice, each do it a bit different, so as with most things, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:37 am 
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Call me crazy, but I think heel-toeing is an over rated skill that really doesn't need to be on the to-do list for a while.

Yeah, it might make you smoother or a few 10ths faster, but so will good braking points, good throttle application and a better line.

Select the right gear near the end of the braking zone and *ease* the clutch out.

Practice on the street? On track, you need to be doing this while mashing the brake pedal full force. The position of the feet will be entirely different while doing it on track than on the street (unless you really do plan to threshold brake every time you slow down).

Scott


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:51 am 
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scottjohnson wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think heel-toeing is an over rated skill that really doesn't need to be on the to-do list for a while.

Yeah, it might make you smoother or a few 10ths faster, but so will good braking points, good throttle application and a better line.

Select the right gear near the end of the braking zone and *ease* the clutch out.

Practice on the street? On track, you need to be doing this while mashing the brake pedal full force. The position of the feet will be entirely different while doing it on track than on the street (unless you really do plan to threshold brake every time you slow down).

Scott


What Scott says. Yes, I do not heal and toe. As Shrek says, it is on my to-do list. But I really feel to need for it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:05 am 
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I am a fan of learning this via every day driving. I take Scott's point that your braking level on the street is going to be different than on track or autocross, but I do think you will develop "muscle memory" by practicing on street. Once you have the basic concept down on the street IMHO it will be easier to adjust to doing it on track or at autocross. At this point I can Heel & Toe without thinking about it.

One problem with doing it with every day driving is that you (I?) tend to want to slow the entire process down and make the shift last longer. This makes rev matching harder.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:37 am 
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At the Ross Bentley Seminar, Ross felt that H-T was extra input that could rob time from laps. His philosophy was that the car with the least amount of input would be the fastest.

That being said, when I was a novice/intermediate, I could not brake heavy and just put it into the appropriate gear smoothly and repeatably, especially going from 5 to 3. I seem to like to find 1st. :) Ross's seminar made me realize how dependant on H-T I am for being aware of my rate of braking and the timing of my inputs.

I guess I need to add "unlearning" H-T on my list of things to do. Honestly, for me, I think it will be harder to learn not to than learning how to was.

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Kevin Butler
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2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:51 am 
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For those who do want to learn it I will add one more little tip that has helped me out (and from reading a few others). Practice with the car off in the drive way or garage. This will help find the pivot point for your foot for your particular car. If you can identify that and know the place where your heel can stay stationary (if possible) and just move the ball of your foot over then things will be easier and smoother.

I also agree that a good line, threshhold breaking, and smooth steering inputs have more of an impact...there will come a point where a person will want to go to the next level and a good h/t technique will help.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:53 am 
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Couple things here, all IMHO.

First, HT might as well be learned sooner rather than later. Not learning is, in essence, teaching yourself a bad habit.

Second, it's okay to practice HT in parts. Just sit in the car with it off and see if you can brake pretty hard and roll your foot enough to push the gas pedal a good bit. 25% travel is probably plenty. If you can do that, it's quite okay to try it with the engine running some. You don't need to bang the throttle enough to get limiter or even close. Just see that you can do it and what it feels like.

Also, most cars down like high performance downshifts to first gear even if you're REALLY good at HT. So don't practice with 2-1's until you're comfortable with 4-3 and 3-2. Those are generally fine.

As for "you don't need to do it", uh, whatever. If you don't do it then you are going to be in situations on track (I guarantee) where not doing it is being hard on your synchros at the very least. I also believe it's likely, should you end up actually racing wheel to wheel, where not being able to HT to get a shift done when you really want it done is going to hurt you.

Do I always do it? No. I'm pretty well practiced and sometimes I miss my blip. When I do, I simply wait a little bit and give the revs a better chance to match. I actually think doing THIS right can be a more complex maneuver than an instinctive HT would have been in many cases.

Practicing HT somewhere not on the road to start with is a good thing, IMHO. Most "day 1" race schools have an exercise where they do it (the Miller Motorsports Park school definitely does, Skip Barber did several years ago at least, the Spring Hill Mountain school does, and I'm sure others). You might consider asking for one of these schools as a gift. Sounds like one would be right up your alley right now. Spring Hill Mountain is outside of Vegas, so it should run through the winter. :) These schools are all fairly expensive, so obviously may not be a great choice for everyone.

To see why you "need" HT, just rev out second gear somewhere safe, shift to third for a bit (get the clutch out happily, but don't accelerate), and then downshift back to second and let the clutch out. All that thrust forward you just caused was through the rear wheels only and could be quite annoying on track. So practice that same thing but instead of just letting the clutch out, blip the throttle and then let the clutch out in the lower gear. You'll see that you didn't get thrust forward as badly (if at all, if you blipped enough) and the car is still settled. Then you can add doing that while braking and using the roll-your-foot-sideways method. What I'm saying here is you don't HAVE to be on the brake pedal to feel the effect we're talking about. There's little reason to do it that way on track, but it's just a good intermediate step to help you feel what is going on and when and why you need that blip. IMHO, it's quite impossible to just go out on a clean piece of track and teach someone how to HT when they don't even understand WHY they need to do it.


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:05 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
As for "you don't need to do it", uh, whatever. If you don't do it then you are going to be in situations on track (I guarantee) where not doing it is being hard on your synchros at the very least.

--Donnie


Just a bit of symantics here. If you aren't double clutching, the wear on the synchros won't be any less.

If you are going to learn, I'd also suggest deciding what approach you want to take now.

Will you be going (5)-4-3-2 or just 4-2. 4-2 is less wear on the moving parts, but IMHO is harder to do right.

Scott


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:17 am 
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scottjohnson wrote:
Donnie Barnes wrote:
As for "you don't need to do it", uh, whatever. If you don't do it then you are going to be in situations on track (I guarantee) where not doing it is being hard on your synchros at the very least.


Just a bit of symantics here. If you aren't double clutching, the wear on the synchros won't be any less.


True. I wasn't thinking it through fully enough. And nobody, I mean nobody, should learn to double clutch. That's definitely adding more crap to the mix that will mess you up. I learned it in Skip Barber because they had non-synchro boxes when I took it and it was horrible. It is the easiest on equipment, certainly, if you do it right every time. Screw it up once and you've blown all that work on being easy on the equipment, though.

Quote:
If you are going to learn, I'd also suggest deciding what approach you want to take now.

Will you be going (5)-4-3-2 or just 4-2. 4-2 is less wear on the moving parts, but IMHO is harder to do right.


I've been known to go 5-2 and almost always go straight to my intended gear. Maybe I'm lazy, but that's just the way I taught myself. I don't think it's any "harder" to do right, you just have to make SURE you wait until late in the deal to do the blip and shift, which you need to be doing anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:53 am 
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scottjohnson wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think heel-toeing is an over rated skill that really doesn't need to be on the to-do list for a while.

Yeah, it might make you smoother or a few 10ths faster, but so will good braking points, good throttle application and a better line.

Select the right gear near the end of the braking zone and *ease* the clutch out.

Practice on the street? On track, you need to be doing this while mashing the brake pedal full force. The position of the feet will be entirely different while doing it on track than on the street (unless you really do plan to threshold brake every time you slow down).

Scott


Crazy.

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