THSCC Forums

One gets their entertainment when they can.....

No Richard I haven't gone anywhere. Yes I knew it would get hot. I was hoping to have some kind of discussion about it. As with anything that questions the THSCC staff decisions it meets with what you see above.

Bernie thank you for reading through my comments without getting so pissed that you took the time to figure out what I meant. I know you don't agree about the roll bar based on previous experience. That is perfectly fine. Rob pretty much understands what I meant. It doesn't mean any of you have to agree. I stated it was not a dig on a person or the club. Not entirely true I guess. My fault on that. So yes I started this in part to vent. You were all so busy with your lynch mob mentality it escaped you.

Yeah I do have an issue with it in my street car. Yeah it upsets me that I would need to make my street car dangerous to drive on the street so I could run with THSCC. So now that means I would have to run TT with NASA. It has nothing to do with being wussies. Forget that lawsuit crap from families. They will sue anyway if they have a mind too.

Ron and Stacy I have never criticized THSCC on any forum other than here. You guys run a very good track program. I do tell anyone who asks me about AX or DE that they should run a THSCC event.

I see many many Miatas that are street driven with those roll bars in them and various types of padding. I've sat in the drivers seat and I'm quite confident that in a good impact my head would hit that bar hard. They are almost full time street cars. Some only used in nice weather or driven to the track. Still a good opportunity to get hurt. So they skirt safety on the street for the 5% or less of the time they are on track where they need it. I agree in any convertible you need a roll bar on track because it has no protection at all. A hardtop with B pillar for DE and TT, not so much.

So the roll bar just makes the car really more track oriented and not really a good street car. At that point I might as well consider doing a 6 or 8 point cage. I'm more concerned about the front of the roof collapsing and side impact than the B pillar.

Your TT rules pretty much make a car into a track car that should be trailered to the track. Just by the roll bar alone.

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com

Graham, if you prefer to run in NASA TT program because you prefer the more casual saftey and classing structure then run their events. We
require roll bars and we don't run times TT sessions during the HPDE
student sessions. Our track program is not a one size fits all casual program.
It's not for everbody and we knew that when we started it. It's not just
a roll bar issue, its the whole integrated system, but if you don't understand that and you don't understand the difference between a HPDE student run group and a timed TT session I really don't fell like I need to defend our program and are safety requirements.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

I've bit my tongue up until now, but this bothers me. There is nowhere in our rules that state you have to put a roll bar in your street car to run with us. We have no rule that dictate what car you run on track. If you choose to run your street car....that is your choice, but a roll bar isn't required. If you choose to run your street car in our TT series...again your choice. You don't want a roll bar?...fine, just don't run in the TT. If you want to run our TT, you use our rules, but it's always your choice.

Our staff is tasked with coming up with this rule set that covers everyone's (the club's and the student's) best interests. We are all adults here and each of us has to consider our own personal risk, both to you and your car based on your means. You have to pay to play. How involved you play is up to you, and only you can decide that.



Honestly, we don't really care what percent your car is driven on the street vs. the track. I don't want to join in on the "lynching", but let's be real here. Your bringing personal issues into us making good decisions as a club. This is a matter of wanting your cake and eating it too. It always bugs me when people argue safety issues. You think the B-pillar is good enough? Good for you, but we aren't rolling the dice to find out. In that instance that you go off and don't land shiny side up, we'd much rather survey the situation after the fact and say "The bar did it's job" as opposed to...."Damn, looks like Graham was wrong". As someone that has had an "incident" on track, I can tell you that it will seriously change your perspective about safety. I just hope it doesn't take having an incident to change yours.

_________________
Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

Graham I don't recall insulting you. I DO get insulted when you answer with the "lynch mob" mentality line. I addressed your logic (or what I perceived as a lack of it).

You honed in on the roll bar issue as what does, or doesn't, make the THSCC events better then others. Now I better understand your thought process. You don't like the fact that we MAKE you put a roll bar in if you run our TT. But the safety rules we have are not, in my opinion and many others, what sets us apart from other groups.

Graham are you aware of the roll bar padding that comes in dual density? The inside part is the softer stuff like what we used to allow and the outside shell, which is removable, is the high density type? You can remove the high density part and still have good protection when not wearing your helmet (and I and certainly most others agree with you that driving on the street with an unpadded roll bar is just plain stupid!).

Graham you DO have options on how to prep your car to meet both the THSCC TT rules AND be safe on the street. I know the shop at VIR sells it and I'm sure others do too.

Perhaps I should go back to the origional mission statment of the TT Series
as I stated in Oct 1999:

THSCC's TIme Trial program was designed to be a step-up series from our
AX & external exsisting HPDE programs (Car Guys/PCA/BMWCCA), that will requre advanced level of car prep and driver still.

It was geared, from the start, for "track junkes" (and instructors) with prepped cars to provide a competative timed program which they could participate bacause may missed this aspect from their autocross days.

It was never ment to be an entry level or casual program where
you just show up and drive your street car. Our AX and HPDE programs
are such programs and meet thoese needs.

The TT by defination would have limited entries.That's why it would never work as a stand alone series. I chose to modle our TT program based on The exsisting SCCA SOLO1 program requriements because it consisted of an intigrated safety package suited for a track program. The roll bar is just one component in that system that many people took exception-as
some still do today. The fact is you take away one part of the an intigrated system, the system does not work. It's either take the package
or not, as the case may be. At the time CAM and EMRA were running events sans roll bars, later NASA added a Time Trail to their HPDE
with out roll bar or harness requirements. Our TT program and SCCA
SOLO1 program was not geared for the masses.

In that respect, yes I agree, THSCC/TZC TT program by design is biasesd to track cars. May vehicles cannot safety be driven on the street with a roll bar- some can but many not. In that case you can chose to run
in one of our programs that does not require addtional safety equipment or
run with another orgalization that does not require them. It's your choise.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

I still think his point is valid, even with the padding you describe, Ron. Some of those bars are so close to your head that even with that dual density padding I don't think it's necessarily safer on the street. It seems likely to me that it is less safe. I don't think we have any data either way on this one, so maybe we'll have to agree to disagree with this, though. I just know I'd rather drive a Miata on the street with no roll bar than with pretty much any bar I've seen, even if it has the best padding you can get. But then again I'm pretty tall and like to lean back a little when I drive, and Miata bars are almost all made so that soft top will clear, which is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

That said, I still agree with Stephen wholeheartedly. I think the club's rules are the best compromise to meet the best needs and wants of the members. There's no solution will fit everyone, though.


--Donnie

To beat you with your own stick

YOU say its dangerous with a roll bar in a street car. Please show me where someone has died because they had a roll bar in a street car.

You say we can't show where someone died on track without a rollbar, you can't show where someone died in a street car with a rollbar.

/thread

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Ryan:

Let common sence prevail- there are cars where you just dont have
the head room to run a roll bar on the street and if you get rear ended
your head will hit the bar. Additionally, some need retain back seat passanger capability. The back seat issue is just a large an issue if you only have the one car for work & play. Hitting the roll bar is a big deal, thats
why we require high dencity padding, SA rated helmets, and harnesses-again
take away any of these components and you are as likety to get hurt as
not.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

I have to say something about the "lynch mob mentality"...

Seriously Graham, you KNOW how everyone feels about this. You have a minority opinion on this (and I am not saying within THSCC, but on other forum I visit I don’t see people looking to undo safety rules). This same topic has been discussed here many times with you being the prime voice for your cause. You start the thread out of the blue and then complain about what people have to say? And what they say is no different than the last time it was discussed? You are the victim here? I am just absolutely flabbergasted?

Now to try to say something positive or at least interesting… I am one of those people who will be putting a roll cage into a street driven car. It will not be my daily driver, but it will be driven on nice days. My take on it is that my current car already has a number of relatively unpadded hard surfaces near my head. As you would like to see the data on how many times a cage has really helped on DE/TT, I would like to see the evidence regarding the danger of a cage in a street car. I CAN see how it can be dangerous. But in the 914, I expect to have it well padded and I am already trying to make sure my head is away from the cage as it is. Now, some may call me crazy and I may even be wrong, but I am not going to show up here and try to convince everyone who disagrees with me that I am right, or give them a hard time if they don’t agree with me especially if I am the one pushing the topic.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I'll look into this dual density roll bar padding and try to find some data around street driven cars with roll bars. I know in the Miata with the high density padding. Sitting with the seat back. My helmet is touching the roll bar. It would take little to no movement to smack into it on the street. The roll bar I am looking at for the Z06 sits further back. The upper corner I'm not sure would be an obstacle in a collision. Still looking into it.

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com

Graham... if I remember correctly, since we've really only met what, twice? You're somewhat tall correct? Miatas are a catch-22 in my book: they are light, nimble, front engine, rear drive, and cheap... all the perfect ingredients for a track car... except one thing: they are small and convertible. Not everyone can fit in a miata with a roll bar. And unfortunately, if you don't fit, we don't let you run.

Corvettes have a similar problem (albeit on a much larger money scale)... while a much bigger car, the "cockpit" frankly doesn't give much more room than a miata except in terms of width. But you do have more room to work with behind the seats and 4-point roll bars are installed everyday with little encroachment on the passenger compartment

We pay attention to the roll bar clearances, and that goes for every car. Most clubs that I'm aware of won't do this. I cringe every time I see a track picture of someone with their helmet standing proud 4 inches over the top of the roll bar... or even out of the top of an A-roof or T-top ... and everyone sticks their heads in the sand about it. Same thing goes for factory roll-over protection.

Somehow, I can't imagine you ever having a Miata anyway.

It's a relative minority that puts up a fuss about roll bars, and an increasing majority that sees the benefits of a real safety system for the right conditions. I personally don't want to see everyone convert their street car to a track car, but if you look in most advanced level run groups, this is happening for various reasons. And I firmly believe it should happen for any competitive activity on track.

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

... and another thing...

You've already mentioned before about having race seats with a harness bar and harnesses... so why not go ahead and install some race seats that offer some head protection from the roll bar? Maybe not a full-on halo seat, but there are plenty of seats with tall head rests that in a rear-end collision (for example) would protect your un-helmeted head from impacting the roll bar (assuming you don't install it like that yahoo in the CRX did at our Fall Rockingham event last year with the main hoop positioned at his temples.)

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

Agreed, but I'm just pointing out how dumb his argument is by turning it back on him. Just saying "nobody has ever rolled a car in a TT" therefore why do we need safety is kinda short sighted IMHO.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Stacy

He has ridden in mine (with a rollbar, race seats and harnesses) and yes, I used to drive it on the street. Fitting depends on your body config. Graham fits below the rollbar in my car, I am about 3 or so inches shorter but I have to take the pad out of the seat to get below the rollbar. (seats on sliders). The Vette, especially the C5 has more room than the Miata.

He would never have a car not made by the General, he is a GM Snob

My car is getting close to track only. If I could afford a trailer and a pull vehicle it probably would be.