First off... Graham... this is NOT for you... this is for anyone else reading this post with an open mind (I know I'm not going to change yours.)
Graham Jagger wrote:
Someone wrote:
I hope you are referring to THSCC TT. I would not recommend the NASA TT (please don't tell Jon I said that). The THSCC TT program is leaps and bound better than NASA. I have issues with a TT program that is pretty much devoid of safety equipment. Makes no sense to me to allow cars with r-comps on track without seats, roll bars, etc.
I wanted to bring this up separate from where it got said. This is not a dig on the person who said it or his opinion. I just simply disagree. This is not a dig on THSCC either. My opinion on this whole TT vs DE and safety equipment thing.
The comment about THSCC TT being leaps and bounds better. How? Just because they require a roll bar? I don't consider that leaps and bounds. NASA TT program doesn't require a roll bar.
I don't consider it "leaps and bounds better" either... but I do think its safer, with less traffic, more equal in terms of speed differentials on track at any given time... and frankly, because of these things, it can be faster too.
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How many people have actually rolled their cars and needed it in a TT? How many have died because they didn't have one? Some real facts instead of assumptions would be good.
Great way to use non-information as an argument Graham... you and I both know there are no real facts when it comes to this. FWIW, since I've been involved with the THSCC program, we've never had a car roll over... but we have had our (small) share of serious incidents. Thankfully, none with any serious injuries. Off the top of my head, I can think of at LEAST two however, that if our required safety equipment had not been in use, I would not be able to say that... and these were in the time trial context.
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This whole notion of the TT being different than a DE escapes me. I've heard the "parade lap" comment for DE. That is dead wrong. Run in the advanced group of a DE. You have drivers capable of and running the times TT drivers run. They just don't have a transponder on and don't get a fridge magnet or trophy. They do know what their lap times are. Heck run in the Intermediate group. There maybe some running parade laps but the rest are driving hard. TT is run just like a DE heat with little exception. Once all the cars are on track it is traffic management as usual. You're in an advanced group and everyone is running for time.
This is where your lack of knowledge of our TT program really shines Graham (and our DE program for that matter.) The main difference between our TT and NASA's TT is that we create grid lists for our time trial sessions based on random samplings of transponder times throughout the DE sessions. This creates groups of cars within a similar lap time range on track at the same time. We release cars at intervals to create a gap so traffic is rarely an issue in our TT, and when it is, it's almost always one car. This allows out TT drivers to really push themselves and their vehicle for their best lap time. Nasa takes all their TT drivers, all classes, and puts them in a TT run group... if you're lucky, they have enough entries to warrant two separate TT groups, but usually not, and usually with little regard to any vehicle-per-mile standard (just like in racing.)
As far as drivers pushing in DE groups? Of course, we've not naive, we know thats the case, and often our instructors are helping drivers push themselves to an extent. But its not a competitive push. When it is, and when drivers begin to lose their control, there are systems in place at our events to reign those situations in.
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Not using R-comps because you don't have a fully prepared race car? So what. They want to run sticky tires. It's fun. Along with using race pads. The r-comps get you good stick and the race pads get you better braking. Both improve the car and allow for better control. Not just more speed.
Again... how many times have you seen us tell someone they can't drive on track because they are running r-comps without a roll bar or seats? Sure, we'll encourage strongly against it, but we'll also give the instructor the power shut someone down if they are clearly driving over their heads because of such equipment. And this has happened... and almost always, when the driver switches back to street tires, they are shown the light that... "hey... maybe I'm not as good as my tires yet" But we'll generally let someone find that out on their own. The ones that are stubborn about it, usually end up in the weeds, or worse.
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Race seats and harnesses help in a number of ways. One result is they help you go faster because you can control the car better without fighting g-forces. One could argue they are as much safety as they are performance.
You're absolutely right Graham... so why would you NOT want these items before you start increasing your vehicles speed/road-holding ability with sticky tires? People complain all the time about not being able to stay in their seat... do they think that gets easier with sticky tires? Do they not see the correlation between increased g-forces and stock seats/belts not being adequate? We're not just drag racing here.
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Using a harness bar. I know we had this debate before. Probably a year ago. Still no statistics to show someone got killed because they used one. They let you use 5-6 point harnesses with your race seat. Very handy and functional. No roll over protection. Not a safety issue to leave it installed while you street drive.
How hard have you looked Graham? The issue we have with harness bars, in addition to the lack of roll-over protection while one is strapped in their seat upright, is that it leads to some really poor harness installs. Often, the harness bars are used as the mounting point, and there are no standards as to the size or wall thickness, or the structural qualities of these things. We've seen some really scary home-made versions as well.
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Roll bars in street cars is arguably more risk for the driver to get hurt than they are saving the driver at a DE. If you drive that car daily. Do a few track events each year (or AX). Then 90%+ of your time is spent in that car on the street with no helmet. Very big risk of doing bad damage to your head in an accident.
You can argue anything you want... driving a vehicle with a roll bar or cage on the street is certainly a decision everyone needs to make for themselves. It is a compromise, there's no doubt about it. Our goal in our program is to make drivers better, and more aware of their surroundings and situations both on and off track. If you drive on the street with your vision up, anticipating danger situations, preparing for them, not getting yourself into those situations... because of this, the risks on the street are greatly reduced. Obviously, we can't prepare everyone for when the random tractor trailer wheel sheers off and flies into your lane, but we can instill in our drivers a sense of responsibility of their own to know that it almost always takes two to tango (for lack of a better term.)
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Any vehicle that is not a pure purpose built track car, and even some of them, is not perfect for the track. That approach would kill clubs like THSCC and NASA if only perfectly setup race cars were allowed on track. There is a compromise that has to be made.
When you go to the track if you think that only the TT group is the fast one and only they push. You are mistaken.
You're absolutely right Graham... it is a compromise. And a compromise IS made within the DE setting... we simply choose to reduce that compromise when it comes to our competitive time trials. Why does that bug you so much?
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