Questions about seats and seat mounting for TT/HPDE use

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:25 am

I am looking to buy and install two Kirkey 47 series “intermediate Road Race” seat, or maybe an equivalent Ultrashield in the 914. Both are aluminum non-FIA seats.

Two questions..

1. What are the main issues with non-FIA vs. FIA seats? My understanding is that with the non-FIA seats that you are required to have a seat brace on the back of the seat. Other than the certification and the seat brace, from a rules point of view is there any other difference?

2. How do you normally mount an aluminum seat? The photos and Kirkey’s engineering drawings don’t show any mounting holes in the seat. Their installation instructions basically say to go by your sanctioning body requirements regarding mounting. They recommend you use six locations to mount (four on bottom of seat and two on shoulders). With no indication of mounting holes on the seats, I am assuming that you just drill holes in the seat to attach to either their bracket, your own bracket, or directly to the car? Due to my height I am trying to get my seat mounted as low as physically possible. Some people around my height have even cut and lowered the floor below the seat to get it low enough. My current thought is that for the bottom attachments, I willl bolt it physically to the bottom of the car. When I say bottom, I mean the very bottom. Not the side with mounts and no sliders. If mounting to the bottom on both front and rear cause egonomic issues, then I will creat some type of mount that will tilt the front up, but with the rear touching the floor. I will reinforce the floor as needed to make sure it is structurally sound.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:07 am

I'm near 6'3" and went the Kirkey route in SM in an attempt to make room. In my experience, the Kirkey didn't help with that at all and seemed annoyingly flimsey in a lot of respects. I wouldn't use one in a race car again.

But yes, you do just drill through the thing to mount it. And when you consider that you are really belting yourself to other much more solid items, you will want to take into account what is REALLY going to happen in a big wreck. So let's say you put four bolts into the floor and then use a back brace of some sort. The Kirkey (to me) is so flimsy that for all intents and purposes you are really being held in by the floor and that brace. Think about what it would feel like if that seat didn't exist and you got plowed. Sure, it probably isn't QUITE that bad, but I think that seat folds up like a cheap tent in a big one.

I'd strongly recommend an FIA with side mounts. Plant that bitch on the bottom and remove it's bottom padding and you are as low as you'll go with the Kirkey. The back is no thicker than the Kirkey. I really don't see what you gain with the Kirkey.

That's my rant.

--Donnie

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:17 am

Donnie,

Thanks for the direct experience on the Kirkey. I have mixed emotions about that seat. It seems people love them or hate them. Same deal with the Ultrashield.

Regarding the FIA seats, I am assuming the following regarding them...

* Nearly all of them are composite construction.
* Have molded in mount points.
* These mount points are on the side
* This requires use of some type of bracket

In short, I am guessing that you can't just drill into them and mount them on the floor like you can with an aluminum seat. I didn't mention it above, but it is a very tight fit to put a seat in with side mount brackets in a 914. The space issues are the box section on the outside and a center channel on the inside. That is why I was planning on not using side brackets on the Kirkey.

I would appreciate other opinions as well!

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:20 am

Should have said above...

I know I shouldn't say this, but cost is also a factor regarding the seat. I know its a safety item, but in reality, cost is a factor. Can anyone recommend some inexpensive FIA seats?

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:30 am

Richard Casto wrote:

Should have said above...

I know I shouldn't say this, but cost is also a factor regarding the seat. I know its a safety item, but in reality, cost is a factor. Can anyone recommend some inexpensive FIA seats?

What is inexpensive? My Momo GT's have the mounting holes molded into the bottom and the sides. They are FIA and ran about $600 each retail (I did get a good deal on them and they cost me far less).

Here is my take on seats...they are where your comfort and safety all start. If you are not comfortable, so will have a more difficult time focusing on the task at hand. If you skimp on the safety, all the other money you spend for safety equipment is null and void. Guess you have to ask yourself, how much are you worth?

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:33 am

Buy used if you have to due to cost.

I believe there are "bottom mount" FIA seats, but those are not what you want, either, as they'll be thicker, I think. They're made for situations where you're using sliders and want to go through the bottom. So they're thicker than a side mount.

The Miata is no bed of roses to get a seat in. It requires contortions for annoying lengths of time using stubby tools, universal joints, etc. But anything safety related is worth doing right. *shrug* You may have to get creative...BTDT.

--Donnie

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Richard - I'm not an expert on getting seats in small cars but I did want to share one opinion of mine -- I am not at all a fan of seatback braces. I believe that good FIA seats are designed to flex a significant amount in rear-hits and reduce the shock load on the body. Once that seat is attached solidly to the cage with a seatback brace, you're getting the full impact.

Now I haven't read the TT rules lately, but I do not believe seatback braces are required for non-FIA seats. There are plenty of people driving around with stock seats + harness/rollbar. If I were you, I'd be shopping for an "expired" fiberglass FIA seat that will fit, and don't use a brace. That should keep the costs down, and I don't think a 3-year old seat is dangerous in the lower-risk environment of TT and HPDE.

(PS - I'm with Donnie on the rant about Kirkey. Get a seat which will not bend. And get something with shoulder supports, ribs aren't good for absorbing impacts)

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

One other idea anout mounting -- once you find a cheap FIA fiberglass sidemount seat, just fab up a contoured bracket(s) for it which matches the floorpan, drill some holes through the bracket and floorpan, and tack-weld bolts to the brackets through the holes. Then you can assemble the seat and brackets on the bench and drop them straight into the car through the holes in the floorpan. Thread the nuts on (and use backing plates) then tighten from under the car. That would lessen the pain of trying to get fasteners on under the seat in tight spaces.

Kevin Butler · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:22 am

A while back I read in the SM forums about a guy that was in a wreck with his aluminum seat. He had the rear brace installed. During the impact the seat deformed around the brace enough to give him some back injury. That little anecdote was enough for me to mark aluminum seats off the list.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:55 pm

Kevin Butler wrote:

A while back I read in the SM forums about a guy that was in a wreck with his aluminum seat. He had the rear brace installed. During the impact the seat deformed around the brace enough to give him some back injury. That little anecdote was enough for me to mark aluminum seats off the list.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

I agree with Mike, too, about the flex capability of an FIA seat. I don't care how much you cinch your belts down, you've got a small amount of damping available in the forward direction before you get completely tight. You'll have near that much in the other direction with an FIA seat and no back brace. I consider both those a good thing. A SMALL amount, anyway.

--Donnie

Jeff Underwood · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:42 pm

Add me to the anti-seat back brace crowd. I hate those things with a passion.

Here is a nice and reasonably priced FIA seat.

http://www.ltbmotorsports.com/momostart2007.html

I just bought one of these for the new car and had the older version of this in my former CRX. The older model was actually bottom mount and went directly onto the universal slider, but the new version is side mount.

Frank Catena · **Joined:** Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:08 pm **Posts:** 418

I have a pair of the Momo Start seats in the old bottom mount style in my Miata (as does Brad M and a few others) ... Its a pretty good compromise in my opinion. Very good lateral support but comfortable enough to drive the car to CMP ... Jeff's link leads to the same vendor Brad and I bought from - good folks.

Frank

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:39 pm

ok, everyone has just about sufficently scared me out of the aluminum seat.

I am going to look into a Cobra Imola composite FIA certified seat. I believe that this is the seat that Jason Panciera has in his 914. I will also look into that Momo seat as well.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:55 pm

Hey Richard - just adding to the fire. I had a Kirkey Intermediate in the Honda Challenge car a few years ago. I HATED that seat. The way the side supports jut out under your arms was a fine recipe for bruises on the back of my upper arms from shifting.

I've als come to believe that using your lower torso for side impact protection is A Bad Idea. I'd prefer something with some shoulder wings, so that if I get crashed into in the side of the car, there's something substantial being braced (my shoulders) instead of something soft and mushy (my rib cage).

The Momo Rookie, as I recall, is a great entry level, FIA, composite seat. Bowie Jr had one in his ITA Miata and it was very, very good. LTBMotorsports.com traditionally has had very good prices on Momo stuff, and great customer service.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:19 pm

Karl Shultz wrote:

LTBMotorsports.com traditionally has had very good prices on Momo stuff, and great customer service.

That is who I got my Momo seats from. Great people to work with.

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