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Stacy King · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:30 pm

Matt Nicholson wrote:

SERIOUS ground can be made up on someone in Southbend (turn 10). That turn separates the "haves" and "have nots" quickly.

I'd argue that more can be gained in T11 and/or T14 depending on what line your bogie is taking in those sections.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

[/old guy steps onto soapbox]

<snip old guy advice>

[/old guy steps off soapbox]

Good stuff Chuck. I have a mental image of option #2 in T10 which I think of every time I go around the corner -- the "i'm not going to make it so I'm going to drive off straight". This is the image in my mind's eye:

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:59 pm

Stacy King wrote:

Matt Nicholson wrote:

SERIOUS ground can be made up on someone in Southbend (turn 10). That turn separates the "haves" and "have nots" quickly.

I'd argue that more can be gained in T11 and/or T14 depending on what line your bogie is taking in those sections.

I'm with Mike. I've seen more things lost in T10 than gained. Cue Bernie or Mitch. I'm certainly not going to teach a student that T10 is a good place to gain anything.

I'll admit I'm pushing it pretty hard in T10, but I still have about 1 foot of wiggle room left before the outside gator.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:16 pm

For those that care, the TT info for the weekend has been uploaded to Mylaps.com

That was fast!!

Jeff Underwood · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:24 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

[/old guy steps onto soapbox]

<snip old guy advice>

[/old guy steps off soapbox]

Good stuff Chuck. I have a mental image of option #2 in T10 which I think of every time I go around the corner -- the "i'm not going to make it so I'm going to drive off straight". This is the image in my mind's eye:

I have done that in T10 exactly once. In a very freak occurance a small rock managed to get trapped between the return throttle stop and the floor. By the time I dipped the clutch and hit the kill switch, there was no making T10 AT ALL. I drove straight off the top. I did catch air, but the down slope makes for an uber soft landing on the other side. The car coasted to within 50 yards of the oak tree corner bucket.

As mentioned already, it pays big to understand where your "outs" are and to have a plan of action for when the inevitable happens to you. Anyone who has been at this game a while should always be looking around the track and analyzing where the car can an can not go if you must drive off track. It could mean the difference between just having a scary ride or having a bad weekend.

I am with Matt too. T10 makes a difference. It also is one of the most dangerous turns on the track. risk vs. reward.

Didn't Jackie Stewart say something to the effect that the fastest drivers know how to drive the slow corners slow and the fast ones fast? I may be confused on who said that...

Matt Nicholson · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:31 pm

Stacy King wrote:

Matt Nicholson wrote:

SERIOUS ground can be made up on someone in Southbend (turn 10). That turn separates the "haves" and "have nots" quickly.

I'd argue that more can be gained in T11 and/or T14 depending on what line your bogie is taking in those sections.

Well, what I see in turn 10 is people slowing WAY too much because they are turning too late. Turning late is safe, but is also slow. 10 is done "right" by turning before you actually see the turn. If you wait to visually see the apex before you commit, you're too late. I'd roughly estimate the difference is at a minimum 5 mph, maybe as much as 10 at the exit. That's ALOT of extra speed, carried all the way to Oak Tree.

Have: Turn before you see the apex and trust the corner worker is not aspleep and paying attention.

Have not: Wait to see the apex cone before turning.

I thought the placement of the turn-in cone for 10 was a little late. I turn a few feet before. If you were waiting until you passed that cone, you were way, way late. And there are a BUNCH of people that are late.

I have driven South Bend in this fasion for 7 years and have never once fallen off the track or even had a "moment". I think people are unjustifiably scared of that corner. 5/5A has eaten SIGNIFICANTLY more hardware than Southbend over the past 8 years. I tell all my RWD students to treat 5/5A with fear and respect.

Ron Spencer · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:08 pm

Kevin I'm glad we did talk about 10 and the run off. Lots of cars wind up in the tires track left after trying to save it in 10. Congrats on making the right choice!

In the less experienced groups (and even blue when we talk about 10) I talk them through the line BUT add the caveat that its a school and not worth hanging it WAY out in 10. Or really any turn.

That said I have video of my 2 off at 10. Turned in a bit too late and didn't ride the gator and dirt enough so the exit was.....well half paved! Its NOT smooth a half car width off 10! A little air was caught. But after all that I was only .4 seconds off my best time.

Since it was during the time trial backing out of the throttle wasn't in the plans. the beauty of front wheel drive kicked in and the one wheel actually touching the ground pulled me through (almost passing Daniel Clark in the grass!). Needless to say I won't make THAT mistake in 10 again!

A question for folks. What gear are you going through 10 in? I am in 5th and after watching the tape I realize I'm bogging down in 5th at the top of the uphill esses. Didn't think I had time to shift to 4th before 10 (just not braking that much) and the data acq shows no only gaining 4 mph from 10 to 11. I think I have to either stay in 4th through the esses or find a way to downshift before 10.

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:19 pm

Ron Spencer wrote:

A question for folks. What gear are you going through 10 in? I am in 5th and after watching the tape I realize I'm bogging down in 5th at the top of the uphill esses. Didn't think I had time to shift to 4th before 10 (just not braking that much) and the data acq shows no only gaining 4 mph from 10 to 11. I think I have to either stay in 4th through the esses or find a way to downshift before 10.

Glad you brought this up Ron... I tried it both ways, but found myself usually DSing to 4th to take T10. I feel like I can transfer more weight to the rear in 4th gear, but I'm sure I over-slow a bit to be safe. A couple times I tried DSing and rev-matching instead of braking... and with more seat time I think that could work well.

FWIW, the last right-hander before T10 I found myself really hugging the gators, and it seemed to scrub a significant amount of speed off from the uphill climb.

Jeff Underwood · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:36 pm

I downshift from 6th to 5th before 10. With the speed I am carying and what little braking I do there, it is busy...even with the sequential shifter.

Back when I had the CRX I used to run 4th all the way through the esses and did not downshift for 10...but had the stock final drive in the car. Ron, I don't know how you are going to manage to keep it in 4th through there...

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:41 pm

Ron, I obviously haven't driven your car, but I think I know it fairly well. 4th is not an option up the esses, not if you're trying to go fast. Final drive is too short and you'll pop the limiter mid way up. I've done that. Once.

Best suggestion I can make is try to take 4th gear under braking for 10 at the top of the hill. You'll have to use your best, and fastest, downshifting skills to manage this, but it *can* be done. I'm thinking along the lines of...

- Car unsettles itself a bit coming out of esses at top of hill
- Clutch in, and brakes on, at the same time
- REALLY fast blip to rev match
- 4th gear
- Declutch and mat it

If you brake only for the amount of time that allows you to manage a downshift, I don't think you'll overslow for 10. But you'll have to be quick about it. Really quick.

Matt Nicholson · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:46 pm

I usually take the esses in 5th, unless it's a timetrial and I'm looking for every last tenth.

There's a *very* brief moment between the last esse and #10 that the car is settled and straight. Shift there, turn in, get back on the gas.

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:59 pm

Matt Nicholson wrote:

I usually take the esses in 5th, unless it's a timetrial and I'm looking for every last tenth.

There's a *very* brief moment between the last esse and #10 that the car is settled and straight. Shift there, turn in, get back on the gas.

Put much more succinctly than I did... plus, it's less brief in my car than yours I'm sure

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:06 pm

Stacy King wrote:

Matt Nicholson wrote:

I usually take the esses in 5th, unless it's a timetrial and I'm looking for every last tenth.

There's a *very* brief moment between the last esse and #10 that the car is settled and straight. Shift there, turn in, get back on the gas.

Put much more succinctly than I did... plus, it's less brief in my car than yours I'm sure

I carry 4th thru the esses and I guess I am just a wuss, my moment of calm before 10 is decently long.

<---Wuss scared of the esses (To beat Jeff to the punch)

Jeff Underwood · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:34 pm

I think they are intimidating to most everyone. I certainly did not go through them foot to the floor the first weekend or two that I drove them. (in the CRX) If you sneak up on them you should not get bit, really. I like to think of them as a great big slalom...as long as you stay ahead of the turns, there should be no drama. As you go faster through there, a steady hand and smooth inputs/transitions will be your friend to keep the car from gettting upset over the undulations.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:38 pm

I can not carry 4th up the esses, I run out of gear right before the top almost mid turn, so I shift to 5th early at the bottom and then just keep it floored up the esses to make up the loss of power.

1/2 the time I keep it in 5th for t10, and 1/2 the time I get a quick downshift to 4th. I can not decided which is better. I seem to have about the same amount of speed for 11a either way. The only things I notice is if I am slower at the top of the esses than planned for some reason, 4th is better, and it also means less shifting for oaktree. But keeping in 5th lets me be smoother at t10 and I seem to carry a little more speed through the turn but exit out at about the same.

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