THSCC Forums

actually Cosby, i think you are looking at this as a green student. the passing is way more liberal in upper groups.

if you want some open track sign up for a Chin event as provisional solo, get your check off and run solo. then come tell me you are not getting quality track time on your schedule.

buck up homie and pay your dues. everybody was green once.

I guess thats what you get when you hang around those NASA folk too long. Nothing I'm going to say will change your perception.

I'm certainly not going to sit here and tell you nothing can happen... but its just as likely to happen on a Patriot course autocross than it is on a full circuit. Nothing different about that circuit except its length.

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

Just ask Scott Sawyer what happen to his car a patriot circuit x.

I used to work for Nasa I told them I though the circuit x thing was a bad idea.

They used to not let novices at this even so I think Ryan is going a bit overboard to say that experienced auto-xers would not be able to handle patriot in a timed event, auto-x does certainly teaches you a lot about car control. However I would still feel safer at a regular HPDE than a Circuit X, and even more so when it is on patriot. Maybe at a place like LB-Beg where there is not a log of hard stuff to hit, but Patriot just has to many walls and made me nervous when I drove it at an HPDE.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

I don't think some of you guys understand the CircuitX format.

It may be more dangerous for idiots, because they're totally at their own discretion out there, but they're not on the track with you. They're within sight of the pit entrance before you're released onto the track, so there's no possibility of coming around a corner and seeing a car in pieces on the track in front of you. It's just you and the track. So yes, it is much different than an HPDE.

Also, to Ryan's "dimes worth of difference" comment, add up the cost of tires, brakes, entry fee, overnight lodging, time, etc. for an HPDE and a CircutX and get back to us.

Oh, what the Hell, I'll attempt it...

Guesstimates:

HPDE - $300 entry fee, $200 worth of tire, $100 worth of brake, $100 worth of gas, $100 for room, 2 days worth of time (and yes, I know you get a lot of track time, and I think it's worth it, just making the point) Total: $800 and 2 days

CircuitX - $90 entry fee, $20 worth of tire, negligible brake wear, $40 in gas, no room needed, most of one day if hanging out before and after event. Total: $150 and most of one day

Hey, I like both formats too, but there is obviously a difference here.

hell even the SCCA thinks drifting is a form of competition. sorry Kevin, cheap shot i know. realistically it doesn't sound all that far off from a time trial.

only objection i might have to such sport would be this, "are there cones involved?" cones suck. cones are inversely proportional to my personal fun quotient.

Can we please not get into a "what costs more" debate? I'm sure its been discussed many times on this and every other forum.

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

Thats exactly what it is Steve... its an SCCA Track Trial... only NASA doesn't require any safety equipment.

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I'm very happy that we haven't turned this ugly, and I am being very sincere on this.

Ok, from the top. Kevin has been trying to get me to do an HPDE, and he's trying his hardest (well almost). The cost isn't appealing, but that isn't what's really holding me back. I know you've got to pay to play and I'm alright with that. I will eventually get out there, I'm just not mentally ready for it.

Stacy, there is nothing that is holding the way I view it. Just like with our AutoX and RallyX programs, there is a degree of danger involved. How much comes from how stupid the driver is. Again, I'm alright with that, it's just not for me right now. I understand where you guys are all coming from and it's very reassuring to know that we have this much support for our events.

I will say this about Patriot. I can't imagine having more than 10 people on that track at once. Way to small for anything of that magnitude in my mind, no matter how well run it is. I can see how it was a problem in the past with off's and finding the walls very unappealling.

As for drifting, I like to watch! Can't say that I believe it's a sport, but then again, there are many "sports" that I can't believe are sports. Oh, and no cones on a CircuitX except for the starting line.

So, I guess we just won't worry about Patriot here which I'm ok with. A little disappointed, but not all is lost. We've still got many good points going on, and that makes it more worthwhile. Like I said, as soon as I get a little more mentally prepared, then I'll be out there trying to keep on the pavement. It just won't be this year.

I think you are wrong and not reading what I am saying.

You have VIR-P
You setup a timer
You have people show up and run the course
You get your time
You compare that time to your buddies time
You just need .3 sec to beat your buddy/guy parked next to you/Tarzan

Enter the red mist.

That's gonna get someone hurt IMHO and not necessarily the experienced entrants, but the rank novices. I have seen near on course collisions at autoxes due to novices getting lost and almost getting in the way of another car.

We do it in autox all the time (timing that is) but the speeds are lower with less hard objects to hit. I know personally, that in the autox environment, I have done some stupid shit just to try to win a $5 trophy. All you have to have is a thread on an internet forum like the current "Sanford Beatdown" thread. Take that to VIR-P and its gonna get ugly

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Good people here, we mean well



#1, I fully understand the cost aspect... I won't argue with anyone on that. But it's the 'not mentally ready for it' that is where I think you're mistaken. This is where the NASA mindset has taken its hold on you. You watch a NASA event and see all these cars leaving on flatbeds it's bound to affect you. You have to factor in the people you're driving with. If every one out there thinks they're going to wreck eventually, then they wont care about wrecking and it's more likely to happen. Every event has it's flukes and people have brain fades, I won't deny that... we've had our share. But our biggest DE incidents have involved either cars with more power than someone knows what to do with, or certain track configurations that made a non-issue on any-other track something bigger than it should have been.



The whole point of the DE is to take away that stupidity... to give you the tools NOT to do something stupid. Green group's main purpose is to get you comfortable on track. It's NOT a step up from XX-cross... it's just different.

Your autocross and rallycross experience will certainly lessen the learning curve, but there's also a point where your techniques will translate into things you shouldn't do on track. I imagine there's a point where your auto & rally-cross habits will start to make that learning curve more severe (maybe some others can attest to the validity of that or not, I dunno).



The offs on Patriot course had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with multiple cars on track at the same time (we capped the 15-min sessions at 12-15 cars). They had to do with people pushing in places they shouldn't on that track (in the track's defense, it was brand new to everyone except Mike Whitney who had all of three laps on it at medium speed.)

The majority of incidents happened in our time trials anyway... I think there were only one or two in the DE portion of the weekend.



I hope you understand where I'm coming from:
#1... I'd rather see you spend $300 for a full weekend with us then $360 for 4 separate 2-hour blocks without any instruction on a circuit that WILL bite back if you get in over your head.

#2... I just don't like feeding the NASA machine

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

HPDE's are much safer than I 40. Of course I almost got killed on Hwy 33 just down from Ryan's house.

You might try your first Hpde with the Alfa group. They are laid back pasta eaters. Good passing (if they have a rearview mirror, no joke) no high hp. Good time for all.

_________________
2002 MCS, 2003 MCS Track Rat, 2003 Generic White Yukon, 2003 BMWk1200rs, 1973 CB350F, 02 996. 08 Cayenne Turbo
http://www.clinehallagency.com

Wow, Stacy that is some pretty broad generalizations about NASA and auto-x experience.

First and foremost, comparing THSCC HPDE to a NASA weekend is like comparing apples and oranges. The NASA weekend covers the whole range for motorsports enthusiast with over 500 participants. I doubt their HPDE incident report is any longer than THSCC's.

I hope your opinions are yours and not representative of the THSCC TT program. When one program starts to bash another, that sends a red flag up for me.

Nice thing about your opinion, it not not share by major manufactures or even the SCCA. See Autoweek article.

Cosby, you are doing the right thing. It sounds like you have a good plan laid out. Your extensive AX and RallyX experience will pay huge dividends if and when you decide to move into the track venue. It took me 4 years to decided to explore the track venue. Now I find HPDE's pretty boring...

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Whoa hold on their Stacy, when I was working with NASA-MA there were never bunches of cars leaving on flatbeds, espically non-racer cars, so I am not sure where you are getting that, maybe on the west coast, but that is a whole different mindset when it comes to HPDE'ing.
NASA runs a pretty good program, I disagree on some of thier decisions in regard to safety, such as time trails without roll bars, and the circuit-x's , but their HPDE program is run very well with a clear path to either become an instructor, or become a racer. I have never felt unsafe when I was on track with NASA for an HPDE. I have not qualms about recommending some to take NASA HPDE, all though even I would tell them to come to a THSCC HPDE since you are more likely to get more track time for your money.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Wow, I don't think I've seen someone admit to having the red mist w/o ever being on track before. If you don't want to have to wait to pass then you'll need to bypass all the lower run groups and jump straight into Red. Of course when you get to Red someone may not see you and you'll still have to wait...oh the horror.



As you stated earlier in the thread, those offs were driver error. Stay within your limits and you won't find the armco in the esses.



So says the man who thought AWD would help driving underwater.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Oh, snap!