THSCC Forums

Fortunately my 74 260Z was the earlier version with bumpers very much like the orginal Z's except for being spaced out a little from the body and mounted on shocks. Since I usually ran it in Stock it compensated for the extra weight with more power/torque and with stiffer springs plus a rear anti-roll bar. Put Michelin XWX tires inflated to about 50 psi on it and that sucker was pretty quick for its day in an autox!

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Another question - where can I find the safety flags which will be used during HPDE and Time Trials? I'd like to have these memorized before I get out there again - then I'll just have to make myself look out for them while I'm out there.

Here's a cut and paste from elsewhere, I've added/subtracted for the local rules that I've seen. Not every venue uses every flag (i.e. VIR will use a white flag to warn of slow traffic on the track, an all course black flag to get everyone to pit, don't know that I've ever seen a green flag) -

1. Stationary Yellow Flag: Caution. Slow down. No passing until you come to the next manned corner station that is not displaying a flag.

2. Waving Yellow Flag: Great caution. Slow down. No passing until you get to the next manned corner station showing no flags.

3. Red Flag: STOP! (after checking your mirrors and not in panic mode). Pull to the right side of the track in a visible location within sight of a corner worker (so you know when to proceed) . Await signal to move slowly into pits.

4. White Flag: Slow moving vehicle ahead on track. Use caution.

5. Stationary Blue Flag (usually w/orange stripes) : Check mirrors.

6. Waving Blue Flag (usually with orange stripes) : Give passing signal, allow car(s) to pass safely.

7. Green Flag: The track is open and manned.

8. Furled Black Flag: Warning a driver of misconduct. Proceed to pit.

9. Unfurled Black Flag: Come in for a talk with the Paddock Marshal

10. Black Flag with Orange/Yellow Circle: "Meatball" for mechanical problem. Proceed to pit.

11. Yellow w/orange stripes: Debris flag. Could be car parts, oil, coolant, deer, etc.. Be careful, no passing. Displayed for two laps even if debris remains on track.

12. Checkered : Cool down lap. No passing. Proceed to pit.

I think I've covered them. Certainly Mark, Ron or someone with more experience will know more. My sense is that they cover them at every drivers meeting as they vary slightly by venue.

Frank

Figure the following costs- doing the work yourself:

Kirk,Autopower,CCC Roll Bar $350 to $400 with Shipping
Cam lock Harnesses $150 ( on sale)
Fire Bottle $30
---------
$530 (mandatory stuff)

Racing Seat $300 (very likely needed)
---------
$830

SA200 Helmet(kelvar) $350
----------
$1180 (first rate stuff starting from scratch)


Seats are typically transfered from car to car so you want quality, confort and fit, they will have a large impact on your driving.

Helmet could last up to 5 years so you want first rate stuff
and you want a light Kelvar helmet or end up with a neck like "Arnold"

You want cam locks harnesses & good ones. We let you use them
5 years but they could wear out in 3 or less, depending on use and care.
Clip in is better so you can remove and store them when not needed.

If you have a popular car you could sell the roll bar when moving to another catagory or possibly find one "pre owned" by not "used" .

Cage should be custom welded and built to either
Pro Ralley cages or Club racing spec which are different. I would
not recomend converting a bolt in roll bar to a cage.

If you are driving a lot of track events a year and moving to the
advanced run groups you need to consider adding this stuff
regardless of running in the TT or not. but you need to be carefull
about using a roll bar in a daily driven car without a helmet, it may
or may not be feasable, depends on how far back and away from
your head it will be. Some cars are very easy to install and remove
the bar and I have seen some folks use them for event weekends
then take them out-again depends on the car.

There are also lots of track cars around for sale, someting like
a E30 325is is a great track car or a 944. Older M3's are
aforadable. I got to agree with Dick: don't forget Vett's
Mustang's and older Camaro's like Miles Beams '91. Current
prices on the C4 Corvette has got to be one of the most performance
for dollar to be found in a long time and the ZF 6 speed is a absolute
joy to drive.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Thanks for all the info, Mark!

One car not mentioned is the first and second gen of the Eclipse Talon AWD turbo. I really enjoyed my 91 Talon AWD when I drove it on track. With 195 HP stock and awd it really can get you going. Rolled a lot of more expensive cars.....

Can be had for what, around or less than $3. I might even have one for you!!

Ron

DSM's have never been a better value. The intro of the EVO has really dropped the prices of the 2nd Gen DSM's. I have seen a couple of AWD '95's in the $6K range. Mind you they were a bit beat up.

1st Gens go WAYYYY cheaper than that, anywhere from $500 to 4K and are the stronger motors of the DSM family.

Of course, Im a bit biased towards these cars

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Allright!

I've finally obtained myself a Miata. I got a stock 95 with a hard top. Now I have to begin preppping it for Driver's Ed with the final goal to be for Time Trial (SSB?). This car will also be Autocrossed in CS. Here's my list.

1. Roll Bar - right now I am planning on a Hard Dog Hard Core Hard Top.

2. Tires - Falken Azenis. 195/60R14 on stock 14 x 6 hollow-spoke alloy wheels.

3. Brakes - Flush system, install quality fluid like ATE Blue. I like speed bleeders, so they'll go in. No idea for pads yet. I want something for street, autox and DE.

4. Harnesses - optional for DE? I won't be eligible for TT until the end of the season at the earliest. Will stock seat belts be acceptable for DE only? What about arm restraints in an open car? Are these required for DE or TT only?

5. Shocks - KBY, Koni or Tokico adjustables. They are listed in order of pricing.

6. Front Sway Bar - I don't have a current rule book. If they are legal, I'm looking at Racing Beat hollow adjustables and a set of RB end links too. If allowable, I'd like to install RB end links on the stock rear bar as well.

7. Full Face Helmet - I currently have a M2000 open face, but want to go to full face S2000. In the past, I haven't cared for Bell fitment. I have a small peanut head.

8. Hidden Hitch - Eventually I'll run race rubber and need to tow the trailer.

Questions/comments are welcome. Items 1 will be completed by Tech Day. Items 2 and 3 by first event (Feb @ VIR). My real concern is wrt item 4. I am working these upgrades in a progressive fashion as budget permits. I don't want to throw safety to the wind, but for my first or second DE's are they really neccessary?

Kevin Butler
95 Black Miata
CS ??
SSB ??

Congratulations! I’m sure you’ll have a blast with the car.



If you’re tall (like me! ), I would go with the Hard Core bar for DE’s. It will fit with the hard top but you won’t be able to use the side latches-- not a big deal. The regular HC bar will sit ~1” higher giving you more room to clear it. I’ve had both bars and while I was able to squeak under the hard top bar, if you’re torso is any longer than mine, you might not pass the “broomstick test”. Mike Whitney has my old hard top bar, perhaps you can do a test sitting in his car?



I’d go for the Konis. If you ever plan on getting much stiffer than stock springs, you’ll not regret the choice. And they are rebuildable… The KYB’s are good for stockish spring rates but quickly run out of usable adjustment as the springs get stiffer. I’m not a fan of the Tokico’s.



That big hollow bar might be too much if you’re going to keep the stock rear bar (as required for stock class). You might consider something slightly smaller especially if you’re not running R-compounds yet. You might try the solid bar or one of the FM front bars. The Jackson racing front bar is a decent one as well. I’ve tried the Racing Beat hollow bar just on the front and it made the car push a bit much for my tastes. YMMV.



No comment!

Jim

>1. Roll Bar - Hard Dog Hard Core Hard Top.
Two conderns here of equal importance:
a- you are tall and your helmet must fit under the bar .I would plan on
having to modify the seat bottom at minimum and be prepaired to go
with a Racing Seat if necessary.
b- the location of the diagnal/diagnal's. Since this is dual purpose car
you will be driving it without a helmet. By far the #1 accident senerio
in daily driving is rear impact. Concern for rear head clearance
must override rear view visability. I believe their double diagnal
addresses thee problems. See comments below

>2. Tires - Falken Azenis.
Amazing grip, good turn in response, easy to drive, and priced right.
Good choice.

>3. Brakes - I want something for street, autox and DE.
I recommend starting with the Carbotech CT1109

>4. Harnesses - optional for DE?
Yes, but you would be wize to have harnesses installed the same time you do the roll bar.

>5. Shocks - 6. Front Sway Bar
Let the Miata experts speak here.

>7. Full Face Helmet -
I assume you mean SA2000. You have to purchase what fits you. Keep tring on helmets until you find the one you like. Open,
closed or hybrid is you choice but we recomend the closed or hybrid
styles.
If you have a roll bar in the car you must have a SA helmet
that should be comman sence.
FYI- we are going to SA helmets for all track events starting with the 2005 season. Alfa club currently requires SA spec and other clubs will be implementing the same. Regarding standards and testing: There is a myth
still prevlant that the only difference between SA and M is that SA's
are fireproof. If you visit the SNELL Memorial web site you we see that
is not ture, SA's are tested for blunt force impact with mandrles that
immulate a roll bar or cage. Thas is why they are required in classes
that mandate rollbars or cages in addition to fire resistant materials.

>8. Hidden Hitch -
Got mine at J.C.Whitney but SUMMIT has great pricing

>Questions/comments are welcome. My real concern is wrt item 4. I am >working these upgrades in a progressive fashion as budget permits. I...

We have had internal discussion on this: Installing roll bars
in cars with stock seats and belts for driving schools good idea or bad?
We require helmets for both the HPDE, Time Trial, as well as at autocross events, so from our perspective we have no issue but the same may not
be true for you personally.

The concern, mentioned above, is where will your head end up in
a rear end impact driving to work and not wearing a helmet.?
THis is going to be both car & Driver dependant. I don't believe you can make one sweeping statment or rule to cover every vehicle and driver.

You want the design of bar that will give you the most height. The
broom stick is the bare mones minimum spec , idealy you want
at least 2 inch of crush space from the top of you helmet. YOu goal
is to make the bar as high as possible and the bottom as low as
possible.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

My $.02 as a fairly new Miata owner...

1. Roll Bar - Or...a Chris Schimmel creation. He'll underprice Bethania and give you a very high quality product. He installed my bar, seats, and harnesses. Chris knows Miatas.

2. Tires - Falken Azenis. Hard to beat for the price. If you plan on auto-xing them, they DO get hot and greasy. Buy the requisite garden sprayer that the other Azenis drivers have. I've had good luck with them on track - they do get a little greasy towards the end of a session, but until then, they grip like mad.

3. Brakes - I use Ford HD. Excellent price, high boiling point. I have unknown street pads from the previous owner, and I run Carbotech Panther XP8 on the front and Panther + on the rear for track schools. I'm a believer in a dedicated track pad. YMMV.

4. Harnesses - You don't need arm restraints if you run with the top on. The G-Force cam lock harnesses are a good price, and I like mine a lot. I would buy them for track if nothing else. I'm much less tired after a run group now, since I don't have to hold myself in place with my legs.

Consider buying a single race seat just for track, and auto-x with your stock seats. Absolutely do the bar and harnesses at the same time. No question.

5. Shocks - Forget KYB, and add Bilstein to your list. They're inexpensive, and can be rebuilt and revalved like Koni's. Check E-bay and the miata.net classifieds and you might find a used set off of an R-package car for a steal. They are not adjustable. Personally, I'd go with the Koni's. For reference, I did my first DE in the Miata on the original 75K mile shocks. It wasn't optimal, but it wasn't that bad either. I may do VIR Full with the same config, depending on funds.

6. Front Sway Bar - Yes, they're legal, but I'd run an event or two without it. I agree w/ Jim - the JR Hollow bar by itself will be too much. I have the JR Hollow in front, and the matching JR solid bar in the rear. VERY neutral on track. You drive the car, it doesn't drive you.

7. Full Face Helmet - I have a GF 950 SA2000 full face. I'm not sure if they make it anymore, but it fits well. It is a bit heavy, though. See Adam Ligon for the hookup on G-Force products.

8. Hidden Hitch - I need to do the same thing. Looking for a killer buy on a used one after Christmas.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the replies! In the same order of issues:

1. Roll Bar - After reading Mark's post, I have some concerns about the Hard Core Hard Top. However, I'm 5'10" and am led to believe from readings elsewhere that it shouldn't be an issue. However, I feel I owe it to myself to conduct further research and make the appropriate purchase the first time. Mark's post left me unclear if a double diagonal was a good thing or a bad thing. I have contacted Chris Schimmel via email for a quote. I do want to retain the hard top option. It's nice in the winter and what I plan to run with at VIR in Feb. I will try to measure my current helmet clearance in the car with the hard top for starters.

2. Tires - Since my previous post, I have been considering running the BF Goodrich Comp TA's now on the car for the Feb event. It will be cold and I don't think a set of Azenis would work that much better. That will leave funds for harnesses.

3. Brakes - Tom, good call on the Ford HD. For the sake of convenience, is there a good, off the shelf, high performance fluid available? It seems there are plenty of good pads available. I'm sure I will be contacting Matt Nicholson for some Carbotech products.

4. Harnesses - By putting off tire purchases, I can invest in harnesses. I feel compelled to do so after reading the 'Arm Restraint' thread. However, racing seats are out of the question right now. My current direction is a 6 point harness install as shown in the following link:

http://www.teammiata.com/mall/Willans-harness.asp

If I recall my autocross rules correctly, Stock Class prohibits the cutting of seats to facillitate submarine strap installation (stoopid rule?). I still am not clear yet on how exactly a 6 point works. I have to say, that it looks just like a 5 point that uses two separate mounting points. Therefore is the installation in the above link safe? To keep the straps square over the shoulders, I think you can get a chest H strap, but where, I haven't figured it out yet.

From what I've read, a bad install is as bad or worse than using stock restraints. In Feb I plan on running the hardtop (with a roll bar) so would harnesses really be required in that case? That would give me time to identify a safe installation or get racing seats too.

5&6. Shocks & Front Sway Bar - Good advice from Jim and Tom. Not big issues at the present.

7. Helmet - Can I meet the rules or not for Driver's Ed with my current M2000? I will consider the safety merits between M and SA at my own risk.

Thanks again for the all the input. I place great value in learning from the experiences of others.

_________________
“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

PS - I don't think installing a submarine strap so that it comes around the front of the seat is really safe. It allows the occupant to slip under the waist belts. This is the safe way I think a 6 point could be installed with no seat cutting.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticle ... ness12.jpg[url][/url]

_________________
“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

The biggest issue with the roll bar isn't your actual height but your torso height. I've seen many people shorter or taller than I that could or couldn't fit under the hard top bar. Unfortunately, the only way to really tell is to sit in a car with a Hard Dog bar and see for yourself.

If you don't have any room with your helmet on and the hard or soft top on, there is probably no way the hard top bar will work. Keep in mind that the non-hard top version *will* work with a hard top, you just can't use the side latches. Actually, I think Hard Dog sells a version on the latches that can be used with the regular bars but they are kind of pricey IIRC. The side latches don't need to be attached to keep the top down-- the front ones are sufficient. A lot of people with intrusive bars will rig up their own side latching if the rules require them. I think the Spec Miata hard tops need to be bolted down in some fashion and therefore the side latches really aren't necessary. I'm not sure about that last one, though. Perhaps somebody with a Spec Miata can comment on that.

Which ever way you slice it, Chris Schimmel might be your best bet.

Jim

BSI racing makes some "bolt on" connectors for the side latches for use in Spec Miata. I put bolt on in quotes because I have them also, and Chris had to do some bending to get them to fit right. I know 99% of the Miata crowd just says to run without the side hardtop latches, but I tend to err on the overkill side. They're very easy to remove with a 10mm wrench.

Oh, Ford HD fluid is available at any Ford dealership, for convenience sake. I think it comes standard in the F250 and above trucks. A friend and I split a case at a time, around $40. They come in the pint containers, so waste not, want not

_________________
Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX