Stacy King wrote:
For some reason I feel the need to respond to your post backwards...
Probably because you feel my thinking is backwards
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As orgainzers, its our job to ask the what-ifs and plan and prepare for them. When it comes to OUR participant's safety, we'd much rather be pro-active than reactive.
And I appreciate and understand that. And you have made it clear that you don't beleive using a harness bar is safe. And I heard you and the others in the previous post where this was discussed. You have done due diligence. We probably can agree that we disagree.
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Then you haven't been hearing our drums. 4-point systems (Schroth or otherwise) DO NOT PASS TZC/THSCC tech for that very reason you state.
As Rich pointed out your Tech Doc states otherwise. And the instructor I had at my first visit to RR was running that setup in his BMW. He is qualified as an instructor with Tarheels. And at the very least has driven Tarheels events with it. So that is not consistent.
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Oh you're really not gonna like this one: If your passenger refuses to wear the harness without a roll bar (i.e. your instructor) then you cannot wear it either at TZC/THSCC events. The same applies for instructors giving students rides (students cannot give rides to non-instructors). At our events driver and passenger must be harnessed/seated equally.
You're absolutely right. I don't. However once again your docs don't say I have to wear what the passenger wears. It says provide equal protection. Both seats have both setups.
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If someone is instructor level or very advanced, then our hope is that experience will guide them in and out of situations where roll-over protection is a non-issue... we can accept those drivers accepting that risk;
That's a double standard and safety rules should be uniform across the board. Instructors do make mistakes too, no?
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Thinking it won't happen to you because the percentages are too low is naive in my humble opinion.
That's not what I said. It is a calculated risk I am willing to take.
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You are absolutely right. That's why I mentioned the high-speed nature of this roll-over. Low-speed roll-overs, in most solid-roof cars, would probably still not require a roll-bar. But you can't know when its gonna happen, or under what circumstances, so you must prepare for the worst. As far as the facilities, yes if any of the tracks we use got like that, we would not be going back to that track until the issue was resolved. Case in point is CMP. The row of trees along the pit straight collected one of our instructors during one of our time trials from the back side (track right from turn 11). Had he not been a C5 with factory side-impact beams in the doors, the outcome would have been much, much worse that just a bent car. We told CMP they had to install a tire wall or we would not come back, and they did, and it probably saved another member from having to use a body shop instead of some rubbing compound the next year.
Will you drive at Willow Springs without a roll bar after seeing that? If so, what will you do to protect yourself from getting in a situation where those ruts become a factor? Same applies to tracks with close walls... will you drop down to 7 or 8/10ths through sections with little or no room for error? Or will you go balls out because you're strapped in and confident?
No. Never had any intention to drive there. There are a few other tracks I have no intention of driving at either. Rockingham and Lowes. Unless it is in a Nextel Cup car.
This is where I find a serious flaw in this safety debate. You mentioned that at CMP you got them to put the tire walls in to make it a safer track so Tarheels would run there. That's excellent.
But then in turn you run at Rockingham. So you want a tire wall in one section of CMP or you won't run there. But then turn around and run at Rockingham were you are surrounded by concrete walls. And most of the participants are in street cars. And you just had 2 serious enough accidents there in your last visit. Rockingham is a big accident waiting to happen. I think you've only scratched the surface with the recent 2 accidents there.
And you're worried about me using a harness bar? That's really confusing to me.
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Please don't take this personally, but there are plenty of clubs, local and national, that don't care what you do in your car, as long as they make their bottom line and you've signed the insurance waiver. They aren't thinking about the future of the sport, or their members. There are more and more popping up everyday too. Its up to you whether you want to run with a group thats adamant about safety, or a group that leaves safety up to the particpants.
I'm not taking it personally as a critical attack on me. I hope you don't take it personally either. Oh, I do agree with you on something. There are a number of clubs that just want money. The one that ran the event with your picture above is one of them. Hopefully they'll be out of business soon.
Graham
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Many more things go unsaid as just plain common sense. No one has to say "uh.. don't try oak tree at the top of 4th gear.. you ain't gonna make it." At Rockingham, common sense says "Hey.. those walls aren't going to move.. I better find the pace that I'm comfortable going, and stick to it."
... but hey, I'm in a Cavalier! 
