THSCC Forums

Rich (and everyone else),



We appreciate you asking ahead of time. Tech does not mind answering questions publicly here, however, we do ask that if you have an issue, that you do come to us ahead of time, and often times, it is easier to deal with it on an individual basis (on the phone or private e-mail) than via public communication so that all concerns are dealt with efficiently.

As of right now, the best answer that I can give you is still "no" - but I forwarded your inquiry along to Mark when I first read this thread so that we have an official statement (since it appears to be missing from the Tech Guide) and your question can be answered with 100% certainty (I think I recall a vehicle participating in VIR-S that had nitrous installed but removed the tanks while participating during the events, in reference to my earlier reply).

Regarding the statement that you could have just shown up and no one would have been the wiser - you could not be further from the truth. We do in fact do grid checks of all vehicles looking for anything abnormal (typically helmets, rollbar padding, improper or missing safety, or anything that looks "odd") and folks have been reprimainded as a result of these checks. A non-fire-suppressant "bottle" would have definitely raised some concerns. Yes, we do look over instructor vehicles as well.

I ask for your patience and we will provide you with a definitive answer - but like any good security policy - my answer as a tech official is "no" (as it causes the least harm) until we decide if it is acceptable and I assure you that your concerns have been relayed to the necessary folks.

Regards,
--Ashraf

Well, the correct way to install a nitrous system is to have the bottle in a non-visible place so as to minimize the effet sunlight will have on the temperature. I said waht I did because a proper nitrous system is invisible to a grid tech. I was no way saying that it wouldn't be noticed because of a lack of vigilance on your behalf, but more because a proper installation is in fact invisible at the checks that would be performed.

Thank you. As an instructor I appreciate the fact that your default answer on anything that could be seen as a safety risk is no. In future I will use private correspondence.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

To provide an alternate point of reference:

The arguement about carrying around a high pressure gas bottle on track HAS been dealt with by SCCA, and they ARE legal.

I have personally raced against at least one, and possibly more, sports racers that use a small nitrogen bottle on board to power their paddle shift mechanism (pulling the paddle activates a pneumatic piston which selects the next gear on a sequential transmission).

I have no idea what the gas pressure or the capacity of the cylinders were, but it was enough pressure to actuate a sequential shifter, and enough capacity to last a 50 minute race with probably 10-20 shifts per lap (2 minute lap). The cylinder itself was pretty small (like the size of a 2L soda bottle).

-Matt

Been done: SHORT version

But to contribute to the discussion: Wouldn't an engine that consumed more oxygen at ambient air pressure levels be a better solution?

Depends on who is paying. It is well known that N2O is about as cheap horsepower as you can get. The real draw of it (at least for me) is that you can install it and unless you get trigger happy, your car is exactly the same on a day-to-day basis. No lumpy idle from a hot cam that causes the car to stall with the A/C on, no need fortrips to the airport for high octane gas when a heat wave hits because of high compression pistons, no worries about overheating because of the intercooler blocking two-thirds of your radiator, no ventilated cast pistons when your heat-soaked blower placed 50% under the firewall crams 300° air into your combustion chamber that is run by an ECU that only registers IATs to 250°, and no need to worry about failing inspection because the system is transparent. All you get is dose of horsepower when you should want more horsepower - at the track. I for one don't need an extra 50 or 75 hp anywhere where I am not wearing a helmet.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Our Time Trial classes are based on SCCA TTR & Club Racing GCR rules which specify Gasoline as the only permitted fuel. This is stated in the GCR Section 17.4 and more recently in the SCCA National
Solo Rules, Section 3.6 pertaining to Stock, Street Prepaired, Street Modified, Prepaired and Mod classes.

Implying that SCCA allows Nox is not accurate.
Nox would not, and shouldnot, be legal for the Time Trial Series.
This should be very clear and not open to debate with available documentation.

So i belive the issue is can you use Nox during the HPDE and should the
tech guilde be clearified on our position?

There are several Z-cars equiped for Nox that drag race and also run with THSCC who remove the bottles for HPDE use and Tech Inspections for what should be obvious reasons to both an experienced HPDE instructor and novice student alike.

A functional Nox requires a pressurized fuel bottle that is
typically installed conceled within the interrior of the vehilcle. THis
would require both fire protection (suit) and fire supression system
(pressurized Halon or equivant) which we do not require. The characterestics of the power spike associated with Nox makes is more sitable for drag racing than what we do.

I can add text to the Tech Guilde to indicated only commercially available pump gasoline be allowed contained in either the stock factory gas tank or an SCCA/FIA approved fuel cell installed per SCCA GCR Section 19.

This is consistant with the current practice of alowing vehicles with a Nox system ( aftermarket tuner or ower kit) installed to perticipate with the bottle removed or showing 0 pressure (empty).

Requests for specific action to techincal regulations or guildlines should be directed to the track event's tech director's or myself. The forum is
for discussion of topics not requests for action.

Chris Schemmel - Tech Director
Ashraf Farrrag- Asst Tech Director
Mark Vitacco - Time Trial Chairman

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

FYI As Richard said above, N20 is not actually "fuel" on its own since it is, AFAIK, not flammable. It is an oxidizer which, when heated during the compression/ignition process adds a lot of oxygen (aka "air") to the combustion chamber. As a result similar increases in the amount of gasoline must also be added to the combustion chamber. Think of it as similar in function to a supercharger/turbocharger.

I think what the practical safety effect of N20 would be is: If the tank doesn't blow up sending shrapnel all over the place, and the engine doesn't blow up from the extra power, and the car doesn't crash due to more acceleration, the only real issue (when performance rules are not relevant) is that if a fire "happens" the N20 might do one heck of a job of "faning the flames" by adding lots of oxygen. It might also "help" start a fire if enough heat and fuel were already available . . . such as after a crash.

Richard, the Solo I rules should be online in the same area that the other rules are (Garage?).

Rich, are there actually ways to completely hide the lines, controls, wires, etc. from a detailed tech/rules enforcement inspection or just from a relatively casual inspection?

Dick (who is NOT advocating use of N20 systems in HPDE's but then I have a V-8:) )

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Another comment:

There may not be any specific "safety rule" in any SCCA rule book addressing N20 since SCCA rules generally, if not always, have competition in mind. I don't think SCCA writes rules for events that do not have "performance" rules. Therefore, there may be no need to address the use of N20 in a safety rule since it is banned by the fuel and/or other car performance related rules.

FYI, somebody mentioned that SCCA doesn't permit N20 "on site". Is this an actual "rulebook" rule?

Dick

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Yup. Google Sneaky Pete. That is a system designed for that very purpose. Small shot, but it is run on 9v batteries so there are no wires.

N2O works well with V8s from what I hear....

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Very true, but then my car's small brakes, antique suspension, and aging driver would be really over stressed.

Edit to add: I looked up Sneeky Pete. Somehow I don't think a hidden 10 oz bottle with no provision for adding additional fuel other than richer jetting would be worth the trouble . . . even if it weren't illegal in competition.

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Dick, I also would have thought that the "Garage" section would be a good place to start, but it is not there. I think that is generally the home of the FasTrack info (it should have the Solo I, GCR, etc. on that same page, but it doesn't for some odd reason).

As far as I can tell, the Solo I rules are not online and may not have even been published for 2005. I have not looked at previous year Solo I/II rule books, but the 2005 PDF has a section for both "Solo I" and "Solo II", but the Solo I section is empty other than (if I remember correctly) a mention that the Solo I rules will be published at the first of the year (this year, not next). It looks to me as if the Solo I and Solo II rules used to be published in the same document, but that recently (this year?) they pulled the Solo I rules out??

Also the navigation on the SCCA site gives you options for Solo II or Pro Solo, but no Solo I. I have also looked in the "Merchanise" section and you can buy printed copies of the 2005 Solo rules (probably the same thing as the PDF, but not sure) as well as the GCR and other items. But no mention of Solo I rulebook.

I am curious about all of this as I am researching various items for my 914 build up. Since I plan to do Autocross, HPDE and TT events, the Solo I, Solo II and GCR are all required reading for me (with Solo I rules being the missing link).

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Solo I is now TTR. It still remains the redheaded stepchild of SCCA motorsports.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Rich, I gotta agree. I used to think Solo2 was the redheaded stepchild until I became slightly interested in running the Blue Ridge Hillclimb. I might have actually done it had I been able to figure out just what friggin rules the thing ran under (this was one or two years ago, I forget which). It seemed like a lot of finger pointing from one set of rules back to the other that never made any sense.

I got the impression that if you haven't been doing Solo 1 for umpteen years already that it would be impossible to get right. *shrug*


--Donnie

Richard,

Here is a link (which probably won't work ) http://www.scca.org/Club/Index.asp?IdS= ... timetrials

If it doesn't, go to Club Racing, then Cars and Rules, then Time Trial Rules, then download the pdf

Dick

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I think that they will allow any Solo II stock or SP car to run with the right safety equipment. The problem is that some of the safety stuff is in the TTR then the rest in the GCR, but the TTR then says that under certain conditions it can over-rule the GCR. I too was really confused. I figured I was going to make the car legal for THSCC then go watch the event and get their tech guy to tell me what to do. I would run in SPU (Super Production - Under 2 liters) as I don't care for having to follow a rulebook when it comes to modifying my car and that class allows almost anything I can afford, except perhaps for N2O (hows that for full circle? )

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/