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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:13 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
Ashraf, once last thing. If you do decide to categorically ban nitrous oxide systems (which I obviously hope that you do not), you will have to append the reciprocity of NASA and SCCA logbooks as both those sanctioning bodies do permit its use.


Please site the relevant GCR pages/rule numbers?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:29 pm 
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NASA-
18.5 Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is any grade of gasoline, 100% petroleum derived. If using anything else (i.e. methanol, nitrous, etc.), the Race Director must approve before driving on course. In HPR and Super Unlimited class any fuel is permitted provided that the Race Director is notified of the alternative fuel and the Material Safety Data Sheet for that alternative fuel is provided.

Since my car in NASA classification will be SU2, then all I have to do is notify the race director. I have already cleared this with them.

SCCA-
Well, I am on dialup and their PDF is eight years long. But their language is similar. Basically, you can run it as long as you bring the data sheets. I have seen SCCA hillclimbers running on methanol, so clearly alternate (non-petroleum) fuel allowances are in place.

Question:
can nitrous be used in street mod and street mod 2 for Solo 2?

Again, if THSCC doesn't want nitrous, that is fine. I plan to take the car hillclimbing and those bottom of second gear switch backs make the instant torque of N2O appealing. Not SCCA, NASA, PAHCA nor NEHCA have blanket prohibitions. If I have the equipment in place to run TTs, I thought I might as well. If it is decided that the instant HP boost is not consistent with the philosophy of the HPDE portion but permissable for TT only, then that I can understand. I would just be puzzled if my car would be legal for Solo I, the events on which the THSCC TT program is modeled, and then excluded for the TT.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Nitrous is not allowed on site for SCCA Solo 2 Events. Much less in cars.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Nitrous is not allowed on site for SCCA Solo 2 Events. Much less in cars.
OK. As it is very easy to put in a system that cannot be detected and gain an advantage (Google Sneaky Pete NOS if you are interested) that makes sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:53 pm 
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solo rulebook wrote:
3.6 FUEL
A. Stock and Street Touring Class vehicles will use service station
pump fuel only. Pump fuel is defined as that which is “Federally
approved for use on public highways.” This does not allow racing-
type fuels which are available at service station pumps.
B. Street Prepared, Street Modified, Prepared, and Modified class
vehicles may use any grade of gasoline. Gasolines consist entirely
of hydrocarbon compounds. Gasoline may contain antioxidants,
metal deactivators, corrosion inhibitors and lead alkyl compounds
such as tetraethyl lead. Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing additives
are prohibited, except for those originally present in service station
pump fuel.
Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing oil additives are
prohibited in two-cycle engine oiling systems.
C. Propane or CNG (compressed natural gas) fuel may be used in any
category provided that the following conditions are met:
1. The tank must be located in a safe location on the car, and be
firmly and securely mounted. This does not permit the cutting
of vehicle sheet metal, e.g. the trunk floor, for tank installation in
Stock, ST, SP, or SM.
2. The tank must conform to Federal and local container
standards, and have an emergency relief/cut-off control.
3. For use of propane or CNG as fuel, no changes to the induction
system of the engine may be made with the exception of the
necessary fuel lines to the carburetor or fuel injection. There
may also be no other engine parts changed.
4. The entire system must meet local ordinances covering the use
and transmission of compressed gas.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Thanks Ryan. So illegal for Solo II. OK, what about TTR and GCR?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:05 pm 
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Hmm, I'm not on dial up, but you claim that organizations X, Y, Z allow it, yet haven't read their rules? Do you really expect us to do your homework for you?

I thought so.

SCCA 2005 GCR. Section 17.4, and subsection 17.4.1:

17.4: Fuel
All cars shall use fuel, as defined below, unless a specific exemption is made in the provisions for a specific category/class.

17.4.1: Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is herin defined as gasoline. Gasoline is a mixture of refined hydrocarbons.


There ya go. Not legal in the SCCA GCR (SCCA sanctioned hillclimbs fall under the provisions of the GCR).

As for the NASA regulations, that's Mark V.'s call, however, you don't ever get to pick and choose rules as they suit your tastes, so if you claim to be an SU car, then you need to be NASA SU compliant, that means all the safety stuff, and a log book.

Scott


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
Thanks Ryan. So illegal for Solo II. OK, what about TTR and GCR?


Illegal for Solo II = Illegal for Solo I

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:10 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Rich Anderson wrote:
Thanks Ryan. So illegal for Solo II. OK, what about TTR and GCR?


Illegal for Solo II = Illegal for Solo I
Not true anymore. They seperated the two.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:18 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
They run at 1000-1200 psi (about the same as you brake fluid under use, hence the use of similar hoses).


There is a huge difference between fluid pressure and gas pressure.

Rich Anderson wrote:
However, pressure containment is not a major worry if you have (as I specified) an IHRA legal system which incorporates a pressure relief valve or disc. This will vent excess pressure well before the bottle has a chance to rupture. As for the breakage of the valve, I think that same would be true of the pressurized containers that are part of a fire system, ot in fact, any fire extinguisher.


Googling IHRA nitrous fire found this

Quote:
TRIAL BY FIRE

By Ian Tocher

When Pro Mod driver Harold Martin left on his final qualifying pass at the IHRA's season opener last month in Rockingham, NC, things turned bad in a hurry. Almost immediately upon the launch, the engine in Martin's AC Delco-backed Grand Am suffered a major nitrous explosion and fire erupted from the car's wheelwells and underside.

I stood nearby with several other starting-line photographers and watched as Martin hit the on-board extinguishers, the flames died down, and I think we all expected he would just coast on down to the first available turnoff and we'd be on to the next pair with just a minor delay.

Instead, the next vehicle racing down the Rockingham strip was a big, yellow Ford F-350 carrying members of the IHRA's new Track Rescue Safety Team.

Within a second or so, Martin's fire had roared back stronger than ever, but the Wixom, MI-based driver managed to bring the car to a safe stop at what looked like a little past halfway down the quarter-mile. Every person in the house was horrified as we watched Martin swing open the driver's door -- not once, not twice, but three times, until he finally kicked the door right off its hinges and tumbled out on to the track in a heap. Meanwhile, the flames reached thirty, maybe forty feet high, obscuring our view of the scoreboards, and forcing spectators near the scene to back away from the heat.

By this time, Track Rescue workers had reached the scene and while some began dousing Martin's car with fire-retardant chemicals, others rushed to his aid. Later, Martin would say he thought one of the rescuers had pulled him from the car, though he also complained it "felt like forever" before they reached him. Martin wasn't alone in his concern and confusion over how long he spent in the nitrous-fed inferno, as some racers and other observers were critical of the safety team's response time.

As it happened, I certainly was anxious to see Martin safely escape his fiery prison. I definitely feared for his safety and knew he needed help -- fast! But I didn't think at the time that the truck was late in arriving and that's what I'm basing my opinion on now -- my immediate gut instinct at the time of the incident.

Could Track Rescue have rolled a little sooner in response to Martin's fire? Sure, but there were people standing in front of the truck (a situation that's no longer tolerated, and rightfully so), and it did take a second or two to distinguish the severity of Martin's blaze from a run-of-the-mill nitrous backfire. Would those guys on the truck that night do anything differently if they could do it over? Probably, but it's experience that's the best teacher and I'm quite positive that Track Rescue learned a lot that night at "The Rock" about how quickly everything happens in drag racing.

About the only criticism I can support regards the apparent failure of Track Rescue to check out the construction and safety systems on board the various cars that IHRA sanctions. There's no doubt these guys are pros and carry some great equipment, but their experience so far has predominantly been in the roundy-round ranks, where they've never had to worry about nitro- and nitrous-fed fires.

IHRA Top Fuel team owner Peter Lehman said he'd invited the new service to examine his car for driver extrication tips and to discuss Top Fuel's peculiarities with his crew chief Mike Kloeber and driver Clay Millican, but to Lehman's dismay, after two races (Rockingham and Richmond, VA), no one had taken him up on the offer. That's wrong, and I hope it's addressed when everyone arrives for the next show at Shreveport, LA, next month.

I do have one more safety-related bone to pick, and to be honest, I'm not sure if it's with IHRA, Track Rescue, or the track operators. At the Rockingham event, Billy Williams went through a devastating top-end crash in his Funny Car when it hit the end of the wall facing one of the turnoff openings. Track Rescue earned heaps of praise from all quarters for its quick work in stabilizing Williams, then extricating him quickly and efficiently for transport to a local hospital. (Unfortunately, Williams remains hospitalized and a fund has been set up to help with his expenses: The Billy Williams Fund, c/o Bank One, Attn: Noranne, 17426 Lorain Ave., Cleveland, OH 44111.)

There were no gates to close off that opening at Rockingham, which is something I'm sure will be looked into, but there are gates at Virginia Motorsport Park where the next race was held -- but they weren't in use! I visited the top end briefly during qualifying and noticed at the second turnoff (I think), the heavy metal gate was propped open to allow the cars to exit quickly and unimpeded. I understand the desire for that, but after what happened to Williams, I was surprised to see a single hay bale protecting the potentially deadly end of the open wall that faced the track.

Now, admittedly, most of the cars were well slowed down by the time they reached that point and easily made the turn at a safe speed. But in just the few minutes I was there, at least a couple of Funny Cars and Pro Mods with late chute deployments passed by at a fairly good clip, heading for the extreme end of the pavement before exiting. If something bizarre had happened (blown tire? broken suspension? driver passes out?), we easily could have seen a repeat of Williams' accident scenario.

Drag racing is a dangerous sport. That's why we need professional organizations like Track Rescue and the sanctioning bodies to protect racers -- most often from themselves. Unfortunately, racers at all levels rarely take the opportunity to visit the top end and see what it looks like before they arrive there at 100, 200, or even 300 miles an hour. If you've got a problem at that point, it's probably too late to be looking for escape paths and it's definitely way too late to ask for a gate to be closed.

We know racers are interested in safety, but their interest often extends only as far as the corners of their vehicle. They typically put blind trust in the tracks and safety personnel to make sure they've got the safest venue possible for racing, and right or wrong, if that means a little inconvenience by swinging a gate after every pass, I'd say it's worth it. Wouldn't you?


Do you want to be Harold? Finding out that the relief valve doesn't work as anticipated usually happens the hard way.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:20 pm 
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scottjohnson wrote:
Hmm, I'm not on dial up, but you claim that organizations X, Y, Z allow it, yet haven't read their rules? Do you really expect us to do your homework for you?

I thought so.

SCCA 2005 GCR. Section 17.4, and subsection 17.4.1:

17.4: Fuel
All cars shall use fuel, as defined below, unless a specific exemption is made in the provisions for a specific category/class.

17.4.1: Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is herin defined as gasoline. Gasoline is a mixture of refined hydrocarbons.


There ya go. Not legal in the SCCA GCR (SCCA sanctioned hillclimbs fall under the provisions of the GCR).

As for the NASA regulations, that's Mark V.'s call, however, you don't ever get to pick and choose rules as they suit your tastes, so if you claim to be an SU car, then you need to be NASA SU compliant, that means all the safety stuff, and a log book.

Scott
Scott, like I said before, take it down a notch. I am asking a question, not inciting a riot. I have indeed read the rules, but I unfortunately do not have them memorized like a preacher with chapter and verse. Thus, when you ask me to provided them, I cannot at this moment. There are provisions in the GCR for running non-gasoline fuels, IIRC.

As I said before, if nitrous is not legal, then I will run other events. If I go to run with NASA and make my car SU with a logbook, and I can come back to THSCC, I might. I am just asking a question of Mark and the THSCC Time Trial and HPDE technical team. There is no reason for you to act like I am asking you to do work on my behalf or that I am trying to do something wrong. I could have just shown up in November with the system in the car and I doubt anyone would have been any the wiser. I have an annual tech, and there is no reason for anyone to look at my car. But I took the high road and asked because I knew there might be some questions. There is no need for you to be rude when I am trying to do the right thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:37 pm 
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scottjohnson wrote:
SCCA 2005 GCR. Section 17.4, and subsection 17.4.1:

17.4: Fuel
All cars shall use fuel, as defined below, unless a specific exemption is made in the provisions for a specific category/class.

17.4.1: Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is herin defined as gasoline. Gasoline is a mixture of refined hydrocarbons.


No dog in this fight at all, but playing devils advocate I was curious about how the GCR handled the fact that you need both a fuel and oxidizer to burn something. And as I understand it, Nitrous Oxide is not a "fuel", but is an oxidizer and adds additional Oxygen. But the GCR Glossary defines "Fuel" as follows...

"The chemical mixture which, when mixed with air, is burned in an engine to produce power."

So, does that mean you can only use regular air + fuel? With NOS or anything else excluded as it doesn't fit into the "air" or "fuel" category? If that is true, are water injection systems allowed on turbocharger systems?? Or does the above definition only use "air" as an example of an oxidizer and does not prevent you from using additional oxidizers or something like water injection (addition of an additional element into the fuel/oxidizer combo)?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:42 pm 
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Richard, if you can set water on fire, you'll make millions!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Richard, if you can set water on fire, you'll make millions!


Haha. I have found a way, but I have to debug my perpetual motion machine first as it powers the entire system. :)

Seriously I was just trying to figure out what is allowable to be inserted into the combusion chamber via GCR. With the addtion of water being a way to "aid" the combustion via prevention of detonation.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
Ryan Holton wrote:
Rich Anderson wrote:
Thanks Ryan. So illegal for Solo II. OK, what about TTR and GCR?


Illegal for Solo II = Illegal for Solo I
Not true anymore. They seperated the two.


Semi related question... When is the SCCA going to publish the Solo I rules online like they have the GCR and Solo II rules?? Or have they and I just can't find it?

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