THSCC Forums

Rich,
Have you ever been in a roll over???
I was in one two weeks ago. Sure seems like I ducked. Perhaps I was thrown and perhaps the roof wasn't crushed down far enough.. But is sure felt like I ducked when the vehicle went over on its right side. And when it all stopped my left hand was holding me away from the roof as I was hanging in the three point oem seatbelt. Maybe it wasn't voilent enough, it stopped on the roof. And perhaps multiple rolls would make a big difference.
Whats your take on that???
I don't have enough experience in rollovers. Hope I don't get experienced either.
Bernie

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

No, I have been fortunate enough to not have been upside-down yet. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have been in contact situations and I have never had the ability to lucidly determine what my body position should be. Generally, it is bite down (so as not to bite off my tongue) and brace for impact. Furthermore, in a rollover, I am not sure that I am physically fit enough to resist the momentum of my body if it is required to be going in the other direction. I sure know that when I hit at 40 mph, I couldn't brace myself to stop from moving forward, so I am sceptical that I could manipulate my upper torso to resist gravity and inertia in order to duck during a rollover. Adrenaline being a wonderful thing, I sure hope I can, but at this point I am not counting on it.

In your rollover, when all was said and done, how much wiggle room did you have in the belt? Since you were upside-down, could you have done an inverted sit up to assume the airline crash position? Also, were you driver or passenger?

Thanks for sharing. I have seen in car of a couple of rollovers, and while everyone ducks their head, no harness system prevents that. I have not yet seen one where someone collapses their torso. Hopefully your experience can help fill in some gaps in our knowledge.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

There was a picture floating around of a e36 bmw that was in a bad rollover and summit point, the roof was completly pushed down, the driver and the instruct were both fine with a few brusies, apparntly when the roof was pushed down on them the were litterly pushed down and to the inside to were they were practically laying on each others torso.
This is something that could not happen in a harness.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Rich I was the driver, due to the steering wheel. no airline crash position either. I would be afraid of the dashboard collapsing or moving back toward you. As the vehicle rolled I leaned to the right (the direction of roll) and grabbed the consul, that position was easily attained due to the direction of roll. when the roof crushes in it happens relatively slow as compared to an impact event. I distinctly recall saying to myself (crap its rolling, oh shit the doors are buckling), then the windshield broke, the roof continued down and scraped the rear view mirror of the broken windshield. And during this evolution everything in the vehicle was flying all over the place. As far as wiggle room in the belt, about two inches from my butt to the seat in the inverted position.
So in essence there was no ducking, just a lean to the right which is why I was pushing against the roof with my left hand.
Be assured that a 180 degree roll is nowhere near as bad as a forty MPH impact. If I had to guess I'd say it was less than a fifteen MPH crash, maybe less than ten MPH.
Apparently I was in the same position as the driver of the BMW rollover that David Teague wrote about. I believe its the most natural way to duck. there's more room that way.
Bernie

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Ok,

Here's a test comparing 3 pt to a new 4ish pt harness design. The test shows how relatively easy it is for your body slip out of the 3 pt from side impact or roll overs. I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions drawn at the end of the report...but hey, they guy's trying to sell his design! It just shows how when Mr Physics tells you were to go, you're just a ragdoll along for the ride.

http://www.autoliv.com/Appl_ALV/alvweb. ... ESV3-2.pdf


It seems Ford and Volvo are considering going to some type of stock 4 pt harness. Mercedes, however, "...reported reservations Mercedes-Benz researchers had about the more restrictive four-point belt systems. "They really hold the upper body in too rigid a position..." See article:

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.asp ... id=4019915


Here's another report claiming 3 pts responsible for deaths in rollovers. Haven't had time to read it, but looks as if the technical content is probably pretty good.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/belt_report.pdf


It seems the primary focus on automotive restraints has been historically wrt frontal impact. The side impact and rollover concerns are more recent and really just now being addressed. There is a fair amount of data that supports the idea that 3 pts are not safe outside of frontal impacts.

I think what we'll see in the future is a migration to some type of 4 pt stock belts in production cars. After a while, I think the data may show that maybe we were better off in 3 pts after all.

If you were in the passenger seat of this truck, which would you rather be wearing, a 3 pt or 4 pt belt?

_________________
“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

We've strayed a bit from "neck colar" have we not?

Diane, Graham, and Keven all raise good points but the Club's policy, as
Ashraf stated, is that we do not like to see 5 and 6 pt racing harnesses in cars w/o roll bars and roll cages. Hence the Tech Guild states
you should not do anyting to comprimize the built in safety or DOT level
of protection designed into your car.

The reality is people are going to put 5 & 6 pt harnesses in cars w/o
roll bars (or cages) so when they do our policy is the installation must
meet GCR, SFI or the mfg's spec. As long as the stock 3pts are retained
the passenger or instructor will make the final determination
of what is acceptale to them.

The prefered solution is to use an FMVSS tested and rated Harness. Typically this will not over restrict the upper body but still provide anti-sub protection. The downside is you could possibly get into helmet/air bag interaction which is unknown territory right now. We may be seeing
OEM 4pt systems in the near future on sports cars. Last time I talked
the people at Scroth they were involved with testing as an OEM.
But lets not go down that tanget yet.

The Tech Guide states the sholder straps must be mounted to a
structural member of the vehicle. Most Harness bars are guides
and should not be used as a anchorage, However, some Harness
bars are designed to act as a cross member to box in the
B pillers and are made from .090 or .120 DOM steel.

Not having seen it, but I think that is what Gram is describing on his
Corvette. I've seen harness bars made for Corvette's that
any reasonable person would agree could be considerd a structural
member. We have to see the car before we can say
what is and what is not acceptable for a harness mount but It needs
to be a very "substantial" steel sructure

Another detail specific to C5's is the B piller is made from the same
hydraformed material as the side frame rails. It does not have a
diagnal support or down tubes, but Corvetts, espically C5's have some
of the best roll over protection of any stock passanger car. Personally
I would not hesitate to ride in one and would prefer the better protection
from a front, rear, or side impact (or all three) but that can't be said
of every vehicle. Given the same senerio in a Camaro, I would have to side with Diane.

With regard to 5 or 6 points. This has been done to death. 5 point's
mean you cut a hole in the bottom of the seat or fail, 6 points can
be done parashoot style. But the anti sub strap cannot be compromized
period. We fail less and less vehicles for this so the message
seems to be clear but we do occationally find a missing
anti-sub or see it draped over the front of the seat. That is not
acceptable.

As an organization we have to come up with a minimum spec that
is enforceable and set sencible general guide lines but every car
is specific and must be evaluated on a vehicle/driver per vehicle/driver
basis.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net