THSCC Forums

Thanks for the responses. My very, very initial plans call for a bar and harnesses in the Camaro. I have not decided on swapping out the seats...leaning towards not doing it right away. I had never thought of the H&N restraint for HPDE.


I do not want y'all to be snickering like we might do to the guy who shows up to first his AX with driving shoes and gloves.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I don't think anyone is laughed at for taking safety seriously.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

The only guy I ever laughed at for his shoes was the guy that showed up to TECH DAY in his white nomex driving shoes.

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

It is indeed a dilemma. After my fairly big hit in June, I am pondering how I go about my instructing. I have not reached a conclusion yet, but one of my options is to only instruct in cars that have harnesses, so that I can bring my Isaac along. The things that can happen, even at relatively low speeds, are pretty frightening.

I won't quite go as far as saying I will never be on track again without a H&N restraint, but I am getting pretty close to it.

It sounds like you have about the right idea. Bar and Harnesses to start, then add safety equipment as you feel it necessary. Of course, the longer I do this, the more equipment I feel is needed....one day I am going to end up packed in that quick release safety foam like Stallone in Demolition Man!

speeling is tuff

It's more than just harnesses... it's properly positioned harnesses. I daresay that me trying to use my ISAAC in my black car (harnesses wrapped around the stock seat) would not place the ISAAC in the proper position.

And I'm not totally up on all the HANS particulars, but I'm guessing that wouldn't really work as it should in my black car either.

Thoughts?

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I obviously don't speak for Isaac on this, but I would think the Isaac would still work fine in that situation. If the stock seat was such that the harnesses continually fell off your shoulders, I would be worried about using them in the first place, but from what I remember about stock miata seats it isn't THAT bad.

I think the newet HANS devices have some sort of lip to hold the harnesses in place, after problems with them sliding off, but I don't know how that would work in a less than optimal situation. (never used a HANS)

There are several head & neck restraint systems out now that work
independantly of harnesses so a h/n restraint system can still
be considered.

These range from the Simpson "D-Cell"(www.simpsonraceproducts.com), Hutchens (www.hutchensdevice.com), to the 'R3' (www.lfttech.com) up
to the well known HANS device.

Not all are SFI 38.1 rated but it seems every time I search a new one pops up. These systems are getting more affordable. It's only
a matter of time before they will be required in club racing.
Personally I'm starting to think it would be a good idea
to wear one whenever I drive on track. That's me personally not a
requirement for the HPDE program.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

There is a new Hutchens II that is SFI 38.1 rated as is the R3 and the HANS device. The Hutchens II will retail for $750, not neccessarily including all accessories needed.

IMHO the D-Cel looks as if it would be more effective than the original Hutchens. The Simpson Head and Neck Restraint System has the appearance of being the same thing as the D-Cel. The Simpson lists for $450.

The thing that bothers me with all of these systems is you cannot wear a collar. From the neck trauma I experienced from last year, I find wearing a collar to be quite effective in preventing neck fatigue.

_________________
“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

I've installed a harness bar (not a roll bar). It is 4-point mounted to stop the bar from twisting and does help strenghten the B-pillar (halo). I installed 5 point harnesses with stock seats. They help a lot at keeping you still in the seat. Which helps a lot for autox and I would consider a basic safety improvement in that I feel more secure in the seat.

I like the idea of the ISAAC device and the new link seems like a reasonably price. If I decide to do a lot more DE events after some trial ones this fall then I think I may go for that to at least provide some basic neck restraint. It actually seems more valuable if you are using harnesses since you won't be thrown into the airbag like you would with factory 3-point belt. The air bag will be coming at you which seems to leave room for a lot of neck movement. I definetely can see in door-to-door racing that a roll bar with door bars, racing seats, and full restraints make sense.

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com

Graham,

If you are ever looking at H&N restraints you might also want to look at this one. http://www.lfttech.com/index.php I just saw it posted recently over at CF. David Farmer of SWC highly recommended it. It is probably more in line with the Hans as far as price as opposed to the Issac but it doesn't depend on the harnesses for mounting.

Has anyone here used this restraint or have experiecne with it otherwise? I would be curious in learning more about it.

Graham,

As long as you don't roll that car without rollover protection, you're fine in that harness. Autocross, I wouldn't worry about it since the chances of rolling there are really small. Track however, I'd recommend NOT wearing a harness without at least a roll bar. Why? Because if the roof collapses, then your head is likely the closest stationary thing to the roof and I really don't want mine squished. Personally I wouldn't (and don't) wear a harness on the street either.

Mark would have to say whether they allow harnesses on track w/o a roll bar, but personally I'd have a serious talk with my student about it, and recommend ONLY the lap belt with the 3 point over it if the student was concerned about shifting in the seat (a valid point).

Be safe,
Diane

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Well, I got a SafeQuip collar. It is H-A-R-D, and even has a special little bump in the back to limit how far back your head can go.

As far as the harness goes, as usual, there are two sides to every story. While it is true that in the case of a rollover, a harness that keeps you up right might lead to injury, I believe a lot of that arguement is based on fallacy. A modern seatblet system with pyrotechnic pre-tensioners are going to hold you pretty tight. Also, chances are that your hands and arms will be in front of you, thus in order to slide to th inside of tha car, the belt will have to go around, over or through your left arm. Finally, while rollovers are among the most dangerous accidents, they are but a small percentage of on track incidents. A harness will categorically help you in every other type of accident.

Again, it is a presonal decision and I can see both sides. Just wanted to make sure you had both of them.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

I'm not familiar with your car nor the details of your particular installation so I will quote the party line: the rule is that the harnesses must mounted per the instructions provided with them and in concordance with the SCCA GCR (on their website in PDF) which is kind-of hard to do without a rollbar/cage.

You mention you installed a 5-pt harness with stock seats - did you cut a hole in the seat for the 5th point so that it is in a plane with your body per the installation or is it just bolted somewhere convenient (which isn't correct)? That is easily rectified by switching to a 6-point if you don't want to cut holes in the seat and drill in the sheetmeal, but you probably would need to drill in the sheetmetal elsewhere for a proper installation...

Harness bars are generally not to be used as actual mounting points for harnesses - they are meant to be guide-bars to position them correctly. When you get your car teched for an event, whoever goes over it should look at your installation and determine if it is correct (as well as your in-car instructor who will have final say in the matter as to if harnesses are/aren't going to be used). If you can't get the belts situated at the angles and mounting points specified, it will not be allowed.

Just because the belts are in there and you feel secure doesn't mean that they are going to be better than the stock belts in terms of safety in an incident. Better to have a properly installed/maintained 3-point stock seatbelt than a full set of harnesses that are improperly installed. Our "preferred" harness solution for stock vehicles with no rollbar are a set of DOT approved harnesses (Schroth).

I would advise you to re-read your harness installation manual, the appropriate GCR sections, our tech guide, and feel free to contact any of the track events staff about concerns _ahead of time_ lest you be dissapointed that you can't use your safety equipment when you arrive at the event and can't do anything about it.

In thinking more about this over the weekend, the question is becoming more complicated...

(1) No H&N Restraint to protect the neck from hard impacts, especially the now famous basillar skull fracture, then I stand by my above comments. No harness without a rollbar.

(2) Allowing that a harness could be properly installed in a car with no rollbar -- With a H&N Restraint, then you are protecting yourself from a more likely event (impact with solid object) than the rollover you are risking squishing your head with.

Personally, I won't drive anymore without both, but someone might have to make a choice (only for a period of time I would hope)... and what does one choose?

Diane

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Yes I read the GCR (well most of it). That talks about building roll bars/cages for competition, ie, racing. It has no mention of harness bars from what I can tell. I'm talking about an HPDE, a driving event/school.

So if the harness bar setup fails tech with THSCC then I'll use the factory 3-point. My personal opinion is I would rather run with the harness bar and 5-point setup over factory belts.

The bar mounts in 4 places. Each side of the B-pillar where the factory belt mounts, like all of them do. It also has bars running down that mount to the floor where the seat mounts. This stops the bar from flexing, twisting or rolling. So because it is a harness bar the upper harnesses mount to it. They slide over the side of my seat, not through it. The side belts mount to the seat frame. The sub strap mounts to the front frame section on a bar. It does not pass through a cutout in the seat. The main function it provides is to stop the lap belts from riding up to your stomach. I have G-force belts with loops and mounts that are all standard hardware that would be used with a roll bar. I can transfer the belts to a roll bar setup.

I bought this mainly for autocross because it actually keeps me in my seat so my arms can do the job they are supposed to do. Steer the wheel and not death grip it to hold myself in place during turns or braking. I am not saying it is a rollbar or a substitute for one. At this point I won't be putting a rollbar into my car until I decide whether track is something I want to do more than just occassionly.

Graham

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com