THSCC Forums

Fellow Track Junkies and soon to be Track junkies:

There been a distubing rash of incidents this track season within
the sope of HPDE events. Stacy is formulating a statment from the
"track event's team" but I would like to make a few comments.

You must realize HPDE is a form of motorspots. All the caravets
about motorsports apply. People can and have died doing what we do.
People have become seriously injured doing what we do.

These recent incidents are a wake up call to everyone doing track
events. You, not we, but you and me as an individuals, must make our own risk analysis. It does not take many lessons be become proficiant
enough to be capable of very serious speeds. Eventually you have to
make the decision as to just how fast you need to go with just a helmet
and stock 3pt belt.

This was the basis of a talk Dan Unkfer used to give to the
Blue Group at CarGuys. I know Ron gives a similar message.
I have heard it many many times.

You need to be aware of how you fit with the other
drivers in your run groups . If someone did cut in front of you is your
closing speeds such that you could not take evasive action?

You need to be not ony situationally aware of other drivers but of
the given track/venue, corner, and judge the hazards present. There
are some corners or sections of tracks were one can be as brave as
they want, or push the envelope, but there are some tracks and
venues where you always keep a reserve or you have to make sure
nothing can happen like in the banking at Rockingham or turn one
at Lowes Motor Speedway.

You need to be aware of what you are driving. Are you are driving a
vehicle that you are capable of learing in? A 500hp Viper or Z06 is
not a great car for a first time Novice. You have to survive your learing curve not impress people. You also have to be able to financially affoard your learing curve.

You need to co-exist with 15 to 30 other drivers or more on track.
Contstantly calculating closing rates and formulating passing senerios
to manage the traffic in your run group. If you have to lift and brake
in the middle of hog pen and spin off track car because you came
upon a slower car-you have to realize that YOU put YOURSELF in that
situation.

You need a really good helmet and restraint system in perfect working
order and condition. Not a set of 10 year old frayed seat belts with
vintage helmet to match.

You need to think about what you are doing on track all the time
(and off track as well!).

You need to be aware and be confortable with the group that is
running the events you participate in. Don't take all the rules and
corner workers for granted. Even a rank novice should be able to
see that there are multiable causes associated with the recent
incidents under cermstances not seen at our events:

- events run without corner workers.
- events run with untrained and/or uncareing corner workers
- events run with insufficiant staff
- events run without in-car instructors
- students carrying passangers
- events run without an ambuilanze on site.
- event run with no restriction on passing
- events run with confusing protocal or no protocal
- event run by LLC companies whose only objective is to collect entry fee's.

We can impose all sorts of draconian measures but we can never
guarantee a tragity will not happen at one of our events.

We can never eliminate the risk but we can manage and mitigate risk
to the level of being acceptable. Managing ristk is everyone job.
We have done a good job thus far but we must be sure to continue to
do so.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Well-presented, Mark.
(spelling notwithstanding)

Everyone should understand why we are so uncompromising in our enforcement of safety standards, student evaluation and track protocol.

If we had an incident like some of the tragedies reported over the past couple of years, we would still do some serious soul-searching to try to do things even better.

Our continued reinforcement of the structure and control behind our program keeps it among the finest in the East.

_________________
Brad

Thanks Mark!

What Mark said is quite true.

Think back to the accidents that have been brought up recently and notice that none (at least that I recall) were the result of mechanical failure. Certainly parts can (and do) fail And when they do bad things can and do happen. But, the incidents that are getting the most notice were the result of poor judgement on track.

The great thing is we, as driver's have complete control of this. We control the steering wheel, the throttle and the brakes. We control how closely we follow, how quickly we enter a turn and how and when we brake.

Another great thing is that MAARC, THSCC, Z Club and all the other groups we partner with put experienced instructors in the car with our students. I know Mark and the other organizers review assignments and also if they will let a student run solo for the weekend. You might notice we had no solo students at The Rock. Makes sense right? Few if any students had ever been there before.

My point is that yes indeed bad things can happen. But Mark and all the others have done everything they can to assure that each and every event we run is run absolutely as safely as possible.

We insist you have a "real" tech done on your car. We ask our instuctors to make sure they are comfortable with student's cars and if not to review it and not go on track until the situation is resolved.

Its not unusual for an instructor to temporarily limit the max speed a student can drive at a particular point on track. A short story from personal experience. I was in car with a person who had a plate saying something like 12S qrtr. Obviously a drag racer. Well, we were at Road Atlanta which has a very long back straight leading to (before the changes ) a very challenging turn 11 where lots of bad things could, and have, happend.

I let him air it out once or twice then politely asked that he not go beyond 100mph. Why? He was new and if we got into a bad situation I did not feel he had the skill set to save the car (and us!). He was great about it, never complained, and we had a great time.

We make sure we have experienced, trained corner workers. Did you all know that corner workers are trained beyond just throwing the right flags? They are trained in how to put out a fire, basic first aid, and, if needed, how to extract you from a burning car (about the only time they will do it!). So yes, be sure to thank them with a wave each and every session you are on track.

Still, even with all this preparation we can only control so much. In the end we must have the cooperation of the students. Students must decide to leave enough buffer to the car in front of them so they have room to react. Students must listen to their instructor's input regarding speed, braking and appropriate inputs to the car, including, when necessary, the need to go "both feet in".

We have been very fortunate in our track events. We get great students.
They listen to their instructors. They play by the rules so we don't have to constantly police the event to make sure students are riding with students or such problems.

The biggest problem, and its not really a problem as much as a difficult situation, is that many students are showing up in high performance cars capable of very high speeds. Its unfortunate because its just that much more to manage as a student. Its hard enough being a student learning all this new stuff but now you have to manage your car's speed. At least I'm guessing its a problem since, with a Honda Civic its never really been an issue!!

I've rambled too long now. Let me wrap up by saying just this. If you come to a THSCC event I can assure you that the group running it has put in a great deal of effort and thought to make it a safe event. You will get a top notch instructor that will keep you safe. Bring a well prepared car (good brakes, fresh fluids, mechanically sound), a Snell full faced helmet, plenty of water and you WILL have a great time.

Ron

I for one have never felt unsafe at a THSCC HPDE event. Mark and his staff do whatever it takes to keep it that way. I tell the noobs that I solict, track rules are not flexible and that they apply to everyone including THSCC officers, and yes, even Ron S. and Mark V.

The rules and cooperation with the staff to enforce them helps to keep us all safe. True, sh*t happens, but keeping it to a minimum is everyone's responsibility out there on track and THSCC does an excellent job.

I can't wait to head back to The Rock in November.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

something i overheard recently moves me to post this. noobs in high performance cars do not necessarily constitute stupidity on track. the inability of our club to recognize idiot behavior on track causes accidents.

Mark's recent post is clear to me in that if one is to run in the blue group and assume that TT prep for their car is not essential, then they just don't get it. however to single out the Z06 as a non noob car is rather impolite in my humble opinion. i shall, when i feel i am ready, deflower my garage queen with the THSCC HPDE instructor of my draw and have a wonderful time while doing it. sorry boss, just something i overheard. and no, my Z06 is at least 2 years from deflowering as i am still trying to romp my beemer.

the fact that there is no debate about safety and the warning that stupidity is not acceptable only strenghtens our program and the efforts of those who push the issue are to be applauded.

however, the Z06 is one bad mutha******.

Well I know that my crystal ball for predicting the future is broken, so if you could please shed some light on how our club is supposed to recognize idiot behavior.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

first time out on track with any idiot should make one very aware they are in the presence of one. my opinion is that machismo is a good indicator of the level of idiocy one possesses. the bigger the ego the more likely an idiot.

i apologize for my wording Rich, as i did not mean our club could not recognize idiot behavior. my point was that once recognized, THSCC should deal harshly with any moron with a deathwish on track.

hopefully, incidents such as Mark has noted will not occur during THSCC events.

I don't think Mark meant to pick on the Z06 in particular. He's just saying that a high HP car + Noob = Recipe for trouble. Of course this doesn't apply to every noob...that's "noob profiling"...not politically correct these days.

I agree that if you are a noob you're much less likely to get into trouble in a Honda Civic compared to a Z06, Viper, Cobra, etc.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Unfortunately, it is not always that easy. Yes, there are people who are flagrantly dangerous and generally speaking, they are no the problem. They are very good about pointing themselves out, and, as you indicated, you become acutely aware that you are in the presence of such a person, so dealing with them is very easy. The problem comes in finding the guys who fall victim to the red-mist when they see a faster car or a friend, and try and catch them. They can be very good drivers and show no signs of being potential incident creators until the right set of circumstances arrive. This is why it is such a good idea to not have students carrying passengers as it limits the potential for stupidity while showing off. It is also why the words "THIS IS NOT A RACE" are said at every event.

I think that the ability of an organization to recognize every problem before it happens is a worthy goal, but unrealistic and failure to reach that should not be looked at as automatically the fault of the organization.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

I have seen the mist! Trust me, I only drove worse. Fortunately in a Cavalier you can more easily recover. Still the mist is baaaaaad.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

"first time out on track with any idiot should make one very aware they are in the presence of one. my opinion is that machismo is a good indicator of the level of idiocy one possesses. the bigger the ego the more likely an idiot."

Without sugar coating it I'll just say no, it just doesn't happen this way. In all the years I've been doing this (started instructing in car in 1992 or 3) I can say I've only had one time where I felt the student was not a good fit for track events. We didn't go off, we didn't hit anything but it was obvious after a couple sessions that he just wasn't getting it.

So, its not at all obvious when someone is going to get out of hand. As Rich said, sometimes it just come out of the blue! I recall one event, well before Mark started our program, a student had done very well until turn 7 (Road Atlanta). He suddenly decided this was the lap to go foot to the floor. Well, it ended badly as he wrote off the car and as far as I know the instructor (no, not me) has never again instructed in car.

Could not have been prevented since, for every other lap the student was well behaved.

Sometimes stuff just happens. That is why it is extremely important that students pay attention to their instructor and hopefully heed my advice from class room which is: Instructors HATE surprises so if you're going to try something new first talk with your instructor and they will decide whether to let you try it or not.

Ron

Haha... in my student days, when someone I knew passed me, I'd have to say (usually out loud) "Don't chase ___, don't chase ___, ..." until they were out of red-mist range. I one had an instructor say, "It's ok, you can chase ___". My answer... "No it's not. We'll go off." He chuckled and said OK. Fortunately I knew that about myself and could rein myself in. Unfortunately, I'd been off track enough times that I was able to figure out one of the things that caused it.

Steve, as nice as it would be if we could recognize the trouble-makers ahead of time and remove them, that can't happen most of the time. Anyone can make a bad decision that ends in a balled-up car, or worse. We minimize that chance by using qualified instructors, having clear rules for conduct, and excellent classroom instruction. THSCC does this as well as I've ever seen a group do it. We have very few even single car incidents.

It does pay to bear in mind though that this is a dangerous hobby. You have to make a risk assessment for both yourself bodily, and your chosen car. If you ball that car up, you need to be able to "walk away" from it not in financial ruin (whatever that may be to an individual). The chances are low, but it could happen.

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

IMO there are two people that never belong on a track.

1. Someone who is scared.
2. Someone who has no fear.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

I would add someone who thinks they know everything as well. Those are the ones who scare me the most.

_________________
Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/