THSCC Forums

Ron,
I am not sure that most the the "track" corner workes are trained more than beyond how to throw flags, and in fact I know that person who run NASA-VA control and VIR Control a lot, does not expect his corner workers to know how to fight fires, he expects them to be able to communicate the situation to control so the correct people are sent to incident. Do they know how to operate the fire bottle at their station? Yes, but they are not equipped to go after a drive in a burning car, do most of them know basic first aid? Yes, but most probably do not know CPR.
Now with all of that said, if there is more than one corner worker at the station, (and their usually is) is He going to stop a corner worker form trying to assist a driver in any way that they feel comfortable; No, of course not.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

David, I know for a fact that the ones we used at The Rock were trained beyond flagging. I'm guessing that those at VIR are also trained beyond that.

Years ago when I was flagging with Car Guys were were trained on how to put out fires (not as simple as it may first appear), how to support a driver's head/ helmet and how to extract them for a vehicle should it need to be done.

I can't talk at all about NASA since I've not participated in their flagging program.

Ron

We have to remember that we are driving on a racetrack at high speed, so accident can happen. F1 and professional driver crash also, and they are
much better driver that any of us can be. If you drive above the limit, that's the risk you are taking. You need to learn to stay within the limit and I think our event are doing a pretty good job at teaching that. We need to thank Mark and is group for that. But that said, no matter, what we do, and how safe we think our event might be, there always be someone, that one day, will try to prove you wrong, and that's, we cannot do anything about it.

Patrice
That wonder if sometime it is not safer to drive on a racetrack than on some public road ??????

I always feel safer on the racetrack... even in a 45 car Spec Miata race, and that's saying a lot.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I went to the VIR Flagging school last year and the mainly emphasied working the flags be aware and communicaiton, they did go over some real basic stuff about using the fire bottle, but really nothing about first aid, and if I had done a couple of training sessions I would have been cleared to work the corners at VIR. The really focused on that we are eyes and ears for control, and when an incident happens we are to relay good and consise info so the appropriate response can be made.

NASA-MA is trying to develop thier own Flaggin crew but it has not happened. At the last 2 events our corners were staffed by mostly SCCA trained corner workers and the small group of NASA trained corner workers. In the past we have used the track corner workers to fill in where we did not have enough of our own corners workers.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

VIR's workers are trained by the Danville Fire Dept.
as well as the SCCA. They are first repsonders, can put out fires,
extract peole if apprproate, until advanced life support arrives.
We have always had ALS critified crews at our events, not just
EMT's.

Rockingham crew was trailed by Balza Brothers, who used to train
the NC region SCCA and CarGuys staff until they retired.

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Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Steve:

You are putting words down that I have not written. Scroll up a few pages
and read what I actcually wrote.

I open to an honest debate but be accurate in your quotes please.
If a Z06 is a nob's car then we all nobs or nob want to be's.

A Z06 is not the ieal car for an absolute first time novice to motorsports
for the same reason its not advisable to start out on R compound tires.

Even with street tires there is so much grip it covers mistakes.
A totally green student has not develped the seat of pants sencitivy
to pick up on the vehicles dynamics. It's better than the Viper because
there is at least ABS and a great DSC system but if you ever get behind
in one of these cars at speed it can get very costly.

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Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

"noobs in high performance cars do not necessarily constitute stupidity on track. The inability of our club to recognize idiot behavior on track causes accidents."

This discussion has fallen into a reality gapp. Human nature is just
not that simple see Ron's previos comments. I fail to see how our
club is responsible for the on track incidents that prompted this thread.

As moderator I request we try to keep minimize
leaps of logic and make some attempt to stay within the bounds of
reality, not to mention the topic on hand.

I wish it was that simple. Idiot's stand out and can be quicly identified
and dealt with (or avoided when on track)
Our club tends not to attract or foster idiot behavior.
You can run but you can't hide from the corner workers. We have a two
off rule. Everyone has to sit in a classroom and face their peers, instructors included, as well as the chief instuctor and event stewart .
This is part of the reason why classroom attendance is mandatory.
We are self policeing in may respects.

The point is we are human. Humans are capable of
laps of judement and make mistakes. Go back to any one of OUR
accident's and you will find well respected drivers who made a mistake,
most of the time a small mistake like droping a wheel off in a
bad place, missing a refrence point, foot sliped off brake,
or red misted.

Tradigity is seldom caused by a single small mistake. More ofen
than not, it is the result of a series of faults or red flags that got
ignored. Hence my call to remain deligent of the things that are
under our control and not to say this cannot happed here or to us!


Ron, you have that Vuncan mind meld manual handy?

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Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

I believe what prompted Steve to make that remark was from a discussion we had sitting in the pit area at the Danville autox this past weekend.

Some of us were talking about track events. I mentioned that I would be going to RR in late September for my first event. I was asked if I would be going to the Rock with THSCC in November. I had read your first post Saturday morning about a Z06 or Viper not being a good car for a noob. So I remarked that I wasn't sure if I was going or not since it appeared our track chair wasn't that excited about having new drivers showing up in a Z06.

I'm pretty sure at this point I understand where you were going with it. You just happened to single out 2 cars and I own 1 of them. I can make a laundry list of cars that would all fit in that discussion and some aren't even listed as sports cars.

So in the meantime I'm practicing with my Z06 at autox to feel out the balance of the car. Trying different things to see what I feel, what the car likes and doesn't like etc... It's screwing up my times autoxing but it's helping me migrate from a C4 to a C5. Whether that helps prepare me for track at all I can't say for sure. But it's my only avenue, legally, to work with at the moment.

Anyway that is where that came from.

Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

my apologies Mark. i only was attempting to say it is more the person and less the automobile that would cause ill advised and dangerous situations. the reason i would not attempt a track event with my Z06 is because i do not have the confidence level to pull it off. however that is not to say that there are not individuals who may be more comfortable in the same situation. good sense does not have to go hand in hand with lower HP. i know what that car is capable of and thusly respect it as such.

i truly did not intend to ruffle anyones feathers. if i have offended anyone i apologize. thanks. steve.

Graham and Steve - just because I'm such a nice guy, and since I have this "sensitivity" on track that Mark describes, I'd be happy to drive your ZO6es around the race track of your choice and describe to you everything the car is doing. I won't even charge you for the instruction. Just let me know when.



All kidding aside, I don't think you two are the kind of people to worry about. You've both got your heads screwed on straight, are willing to learn, and I think won't get in over your head. BUT! We all get in over our heads from time to time! Better to have it happen at 80 MPH than 160 MPH I think that's all they are saying here. Coming to the track with a fast, fast car? Be prepared to be extra cautious, and more conservative than the dude in a 100 HP Civic.

But you already knew that!

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I agree with Mike that you are not the kind of folks we are concerned about. Just the fact that you are thinking about it points that out. I recall one of our recent events had, in the novice group, a Lambo, a Viper, any number of M3s, several Corvettes, etc. Not one of them had any incidents (maybe an off track but noting major) and they were completely green. Not sure any of them had even autocrossed their cars.

So, while your cars are high HP and you have to manage that, you certainly have the awareness and the start of the skill set necessary for the track. Don't heisitate, come on out.

Ron

I think you understand something that you do not say. While you are correct that the driver is responsible for what happens, the car is a huge element. Your Z06, as you recognize, is a very capable car. It requires more respect than most because it is capable of more. What it comes down to is something that is counter-intuitive - the more capable your car, the more careful you must be. A student that believes his car can handle (which is not your attitude) is often the one that gets in over his head. But the student who recognizes that the capabilities of the car far surpass his own, has the right attitude.

As I said, I think you get it in concept, but maybe not in the details. Mark's point (I believe) is that someone showing up with a Z06 may have a tougher time of it because they have to accept the wider difference in capability between themselves and their car as compared to someone who shows up in a 1975 Rabbit. It the studet cannot do this, it can lead to problems.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Very true. A student showing up with any of the high performance cars I mentioned may have to accept that indeed they have to give that VW or Honda or "insert your favorite low hp car here" a pass. It can lead to situations where the student "steps it up a notch" to get away from that pesky little runt of a car. If allowed this can lead to problems and wrinkled cars.

It is a challenge both for the student to not let this bruise their ego and for the instructor to recognize this and rein it in before it gets out of control.

Very true! I have never been denied a well earned pass from another low HP car. I have however spent 3 entire laps behind a C5 at VIR-F. Yeah I know, I should have pulled into the pits and asked for space. The other option would have been for his instructor to say "that guy has been in your mirror for 3 laps, let him pass!".

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)