THSCC Forums

Mark can comment better than I on how likely such an incident is to happen at a THSCC event, but I have often wondered if it would be an improvement to the safety of our track events if we required at least one season (8 events or so) of autox first. Why? Because autocrossing at least teaches you basic car control skills. And you pick up a TON of info on car setup, driving technique, etc. just from the car club culture. I always have concerns about people with no high performance driving experience at all showing up at a track event as their first event. Perhaps even more, I have concerns about their instructors!

While it is possible to teach the fundamentals and have a newbie traveling at great speed in fairly short order, they can do that without having learned ANYTHING about car control. Car control has to be instinctive on track when it is needed, and it is only learned by practice at pushing the limits of the vehicle. Doing this at autox speeds makes much more sense to me than trying to learn car control at track speeds.

I realize I'm probably totally alone in this sentiment... but thought I'd share this line of thought anyway. I know the rest of the world doesn't agree with me on this, but that's ok. I'm probably solving a problem that so far, we haven't had... thanks largely to the protocol and format Mark has implemented.

Miles

I know this is an HPDE thread of which I have zero experience, but I have a general comment from the autocross perspective.

I agree that you can and will learn car control skills while autocrossing, but that education comes the hard way. It seems to be that much of it is by trial and error (which can be scary if you don't know what is going to happen next). Regarding the "proper way to do it", unless you spend time outside of the car reading up on "what to do" you don't really get much if any "car control instruction" via Autocross in any formal way.

I have only been in a few THSCC autocross schools and Phase 1 and 2 Evo. I don't really think much of that was about "car control". It mostly was about how to apply your car control skills in an autocross setting. At the last autocross I was riding with Tina and in the sweeper at the far end of the course, she had a few moments. This generally involved not knowing that the rear of the car was in the process of stepping out and she both needed to do something to prevent it as well as be prepared to do something if it happened. When it did get away from her, she didn't know why it had happened.

I believe that a good deal of hesitation with novices might be that they really don't have the car control skill. Then they have an experienced driver in the passenger seat saying "you could go faster here and there". I think they are thinking "I just don't think I can trust myself to try that". I think that what they fear is if something goes wrong.

Ok, I am rambling, but I guess what I am saying is that at least as far as my knowledge goes (Autocross), I believe that what novices are missing out on is car control instruction. Based upon reading this thread it appears that HPDE novices suffer the same problem. The question is should there be more of a focus on car control vs. the mechanics of "proper line", etc. type of instruction? I know that many professional schools cover this type of basic class (including Evo I think) But should maybe we consider doing that ourselves at part of our schools or even have a school just for this?

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Our HPDE events are indended for first time Novices.
The format is proven to work sucessfully since at least 1989
(or whenever CarGUys started). I respect some may not
agree and they are welcome to make what ever additional
preperations or gain what every experience they deed is necessary
or chose not to perticipate if that is their risk assesment.

With regard to on track incidents novices are not the problem
and have never been the problem. I would like that point to be
very clear.

By far, the most overwhelming majority of on track incidents
that result in impact are by instructors.

Advanced/Upper intermediate students come in second place
but not by much.

The majority of on minor incidents that do NOT result in impact
or consequence are in the intermediate ranks.

The most recent spade of incidents, that have everyone's
attention, in the final analysis is down to poor judement
not car control.

Personally I perfer people who come in cold off the steet and
start with a clean sheet of paper. They will get 3 hours of
of track time and 2.5 to 3 hours of classroom instruction in
ONE event. How may autocrosses does it take to equal 3
hours of seat time? How much judement do you get to excersize
that would be relevent on a proper road course?

Having said that I, and may other instructors, sometimes recomend
students autocross to gain experience with car control at low speed
with lower risk. Naturally I recomend THSCC's program but
then I may be biased there, but the ratio of seat time to effort & time spent is hard to justify for many.

Our incident sheets this year continue in a downward trend.
The % of vehicles that fail tech continue a downward trend.
The people new to our program are either buying into the culture
or move on to other groups.

Our students are doing a good job
they dont' deserve over reaction on our part and/or draconian
measures imposed on them because some LLC's are more interested in
makeing money than running save events.

I trust the judement of our instructors. THis is why we don't
want people instructing with less than 25-35 HPDE type events.
It has little to do how great they drive-they just need be
accurate and competant. it's for their JUDEMENT, EXPERIENCE
and COMMUNICATION skills that make an instructor. Must people
can drive at or near the instructor level in 12 to 15 schools-but
at 25-35 you have seen a lot of examples of what to avoid, what
works and what does not work.
I have 100% confidence in the people currently on our roster or they don't stay on the roster.

The in-car instructors remain the foundation of our HPDE program, that is, of course, when they are not wrecking their cars.

All I can ask is that we all day diligent. I can't ask or expect a risk free event. If I screw up on track I will have to pay the concequences.
If I want to drive really fast I have to accept that things can happen
fast and when things happen they tend to be big. I just got make damn
sure my probem does not become some elses problem.

All I can do is try not to screw up. Even so a Mechanical
failure, either known or unkown, can take me out. All I can
do is continue to work on the known problems and keep dligent looking
out for new problems.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Thanks for the insight Mark. An excellent summary. I've heard many instructors say that they have no problem riding with novices. It's the ones that "know what they are doing now" that scare them a whole lot more!

Mark (and others),

I don't think you took it this way, but I just wanted to make sure everyone understands that my comments about novices and car control is not a negative comment about our HPDE program. The more I read about our HPDE program, the more excited I am about participating! I just have to get a car that is not my daily driver and I will be joining in!

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.