THSCC Forums

Well the rollbar mfgs don't know how long your torso is or what seats you're going to be using. Given that people want the things to fit under stock tops they simply make the bar as tall as possible and expect you to handle the seat issue yourself. I think that is quite reasonable.

--Kevin H.

edit: ignore my late post -- I had this up in the compose window for a while while everyone else said a similar thing.

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2003 WRX (again!)

Chuck -

Let me be the first to apologize to you that the first dozen or so posts have not been very helpful for you.

You have several legitimate questions, and any member of the track team would be more than happy to discuss them with you.

I am sure that Mark Vitacco will be able to better explain the issues here shortly. If he does not, please give me a call and I can help out as well, but Mark has more technical expertise.
With that said - a message for everyone - rules are written for a reason, and when it comes to safety equipment, it's for very good reasons. Just takes some education to figure out the WHY and the HOW. Blaming manufacturers ain't getting us anywhere.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Point taken. However what you suggest, to a newbie, equates to the same thing. It suddenly seems (to a newbie) like he has to go back through the builder to rectify his issue. My point is that that is not the case.

I when I went to my first tech inspection from Mark, I didn't pass the broomstick test. I got some suggestions on fixing it, and on the track I went. Easy enough.

Chuck, if you don't pass at a tech day, that's ok. You have time to correct the "deficiency" and get that item rechecked once a modification has been made. It's also a great way to get ideas on how to make a questionable item OK from the guys that have to say pass/fail.

Diane

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

You are correct. Chuck, your first step should be with Mark and the THSCC tech team. As stated before, considering the number of Miatas out there, it is unlikely that you have an problem that has not already been solved.

I apologize if my attitude of 'blaming the manufacturer' upsets some. There is almost zero accountability for aftermarket parts and to me, that is unacceptable. To have a product sold as legal, then require more, undisclosed work to make it legal is, at the very best, dishonest in my opinion.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

I spent a little time checking some specific things.

M or SA95 helmets are OK for HPDE in 2005 " Helmets used for the HPDE must be SNELL Foundation rated M95, SA95, or newer for the 2005 season." THSCC Tech Guide v2

The roll bar padding is important - anywhere your head could hit the rollbar should be padded. (This is probably even more important day-to-day when you're not wearing a helmet.)

Looking at the 2005 GCR, I don't see anything about the sub belt mounting point having to be behind the plane of your back, just that it needs to be a strong metal mounting point.

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Marvin McBride
Spec Miata #62

OK, I do not want to be a wrench in the works here, and I do enjoy the HPDEs. I do not plan to be a race driver but I do want to learn more as well does my son. The problem I have is the latest Tech_GuideV1.0_PDF.pdf (section 5.0) VERY clearly states "Harness bars should only be used to guide or position a harness. They must never be used for the anchorange of shoulder harnesses." "The reccomended solution for dual-purpose vehicles vehicles is to use 3 or 4 point harnesses...."

So a 5 point harness is NOT required?

5.1.4 says "same level of protection". How can any car be allowed with only one race seat?

Sub-belt--- check out SCCA GCR Section 20 for install and why people are installing dual-mount "sit-on belts. I really cannot see this is safer.

I have no problem if rules are rules, for everyone.

Yawl have fun....................

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2004 Miata VR, MSM, HDHC, CCS-100 Cruise, 2448 of 4000

"So a 5 point harness is NOT required? "

Unfortunately (in my opinion) Schroth has managed to get DOT approval for their 4 point harness for street use. It therefore qualifies for use on track (by many organizations) for use in HPDE. My experience with these harnesses is that it is darned hard to get them adjusted so that in the event of a crash the lap belt would not be pulled up over the pelvis. If the belt rides up it could cut the abdomen in half (a grim picture, but an unfortunate reality).
Having many hours on track in the right seat, I'll tell you that having better harness and safety features for the instructor is what I would suggest. If the instructor is riding around worrying about his/her safety, their advice is less likely to help you go faster.
Another thing to think about is the type of harness that is installed for the right seat. I have been in many student cars where the driver had a new cam lock harness and the instructor had the older duck bill harness. Often the student is waiting in the pits for the instructor to get off track to jump into their car. The extra time it takes the instructor to fiddle with the old style belts while wearing a helmet (can't see down too well) cuts into the student's track time.
Regarding the different seat types: A student in a very supportive race seat is more likely to explore the limits of lateral force. This is very tireing for the instructor trying to stay inside the car.
As for anti-sub straps, my son has the sit-on-it style to avoid cutting into the seat cushion, and I have the dual anti sub straps that extend down through the seat. Personally I find the no-sit straps a little more comfortable, but the sit-on straps are not all that much worse. They are not the nut crusher that they look like. I included a link for the sit-on belts:
http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp? ... up&from=30
This vendor can also provide the high density foam for the roll bar. Note that the high density foam does not encircle the bar, it applies on the pasenger side of the bar to afford better clearance to the roof. I converted my bar padding to the newer style after checking it out. It is MUCH better. It helps to get it warm when installing/forming it to a curved bar, so keep it indoors before installing.
Hope to see you on track. There is still time to get the car ready (I hope, since I just got my car reassembled and it needs alignment).
Charllie Guthrie

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel

Chuck,
Be careful looking at the Tech Guide to distinguish between what is required for HPDE and what is required for time trial. Time trials have a higher safety standard.

The minimimum safety requirements (in addition to a mechanically track-worthy car) for HPDE in a convertible running with the top up is a Solo I compliant (padded) roll bar and a helmet. If you want to run with the top down, you need arm restraints, which I've never really figured out how to use with the stock 3 point belts. Running with the top down is a nice experience, but the car is faster with the top up.

If you choose to install harnesses, then you should have one for both sides. I like harnesses. I wish all my students had harnesses. They are not required.

I believe the reference to "harness bars" in the tech guide has to do with those relatively flimsy things that you see sedan drivers installing between the seat belt mounting bolts on the B pillars, or 2-seater drivers installing between the rear shock towers. These aren't strong enough to serve as shoulder belt anchoring points for high speed use. When I referred to "harness bar" in my earlier post, I meant an integral part of the roll bar that is constructed of the same tubing as the rest of the roll bar, running horizontally between the uprights of the main hoop at a level appropriate for shoulder belt mounting. These are what the shoulder belts mount to in just about every race car I've ever seen.

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Marvin McBride
Spec Miata #62

rich you have a p.m. re the kuhmo tire you got from me.

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they misunderestimated me.

I understand Charlie's point on this, but I have Schroth Rallye 4 on my Celica which I will use at the HPDE (identical for driver and passenger). I think the important thing with a 4 point is that they are installed properly and they are married with a fixed back race seat with fixed guides for the lap belt. The ability for the lap belt to 'ride up on you' is extremely limited with this setup.

Would I prefer to have 5 points if I were doing regular HPDE's? Sure, but with a car that is dedicated to autocross, I don't want to do any drilling and cutting until I'm ready to make it a true track whore

Also, I feel a whole lot safer in a car with a 4 point and fixed back race seats than a car with stock seats and 3 point belts. Take a look at what happened to Robert's Miata seat when he ate the Armco that time. He was fortunate to not have a back issue after that one. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

You do have rollover protection with those harnesses for HPDE don't you? (I haven't seen your Celica in a while.)

I, for one, won't be harnessed (4, 5, or 6 point) upright in any car on track without at least a rollbar. Period. Don't know how many other instructors feel the same way.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I have no problem with it. A modern three point belt with automatic tensioners will pin you to the seat the same way in a serious accident. I always hear the arguement about the ability to duck when rolling over, but hang yourself upside down and do a sit-up with someone pressing on one shoulder. Congratulations if you can, you are in far better shape than 99% of us, but that is what you would have to do to duck in a rollover. Plus having seen in car videos of rollovers, I have never once seen anyone do anything that even remotely resembles ducking. In fact, most of the time, the drive braces against the wheel with his arms, pushing himself back into the seat, just as a harness would.

That is just my line of thinking and everyone has their own level of personal safety on issues. To me, a Schroth harness which gets tested by multiple government and some independent agencies, when bolted to factory seat belt mounting hard-points that undergo a incredible battery of tests, is a huge asset in terms of safety whether or not you add factory rollover protection. My personal comfort is much more worried about a bar that was bolted or welded in by someone who may or may not have any understanding of crash safety, that could interfere with the correct functioning of factory safety design that is run by people who really know what they are doing and is placed inches from my body and head. The reason? The only HPDE fatality I know of came directly from a bar installation in a 911 that was too close to the driver and when he backed it into the wall, he slid into the bar, and died of a basal (sp?) skull fracture.

This is just my opinion. As Diane said, this is a personal issue, so nothing I said is fact or should be taken as such.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

So, the Tech_GuideV1.0_PDF.pdf states:

5.3 Convertibles
Convertibles must have a roll bar to participate in the HPDE. This is a requirement of all venues where we currently hold events. Hard top vehicles do not require roll bars to participate in the HPDE.
5.3.1 Targa or T-Top models are not classified as convertibles and thus do not require a roll bar.
5.3.2 Convertibles with removable roofs installed are still convertibles and require a roll bar.

and in:
5.3.7 Both the driver and passenger must use arm restraints.

Does this indicate that a convertible with a hardtop installed or the soft top up is still subject to the arm restraints rule?

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2004 Miata VR, MSM, HDHC, CCS-100 Cruise, 2448 of 4000

That rule talks to the weaker guide bars you commonly see on Autopower rollbars. It's a smaller piece of steel above the main crossbar.

I almost said that the harnesses are NOT required, but to be frank, I'm not sure with a convertible. I'll leave it to Mark or the others to field that.



They shouldn't be allowed. You are correct.

Think of it this way. I'm an instructor. I am putting my life in the hands of a total stranger. If you don't have enough respect for what I'm doing that weekend to provide me with the same level of safety equipment you think you need for yourself, I don't want to get in the car with you anyway.



Being at work I don't have my GCR on hand, but it sounds like you're talking about 6 point belts. Where you have two (2) sub straps that are typically routed under your thighs, through the seat somehow, and attach at the lap belt pickup points.



What would lead you to believe otherwise?

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Karl, I AM trying to make it safe. That is why I am asking.....

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2004 Miata VR, MSM, HDHC, CCS-100 Cruise, 2448 of 4000