THSCC Forums

So Mark thinks that my BIG OFF was a result of "- red misting"....well, OK, I'll accept that. I was just going progressively faster and faster through turn one and I should have used the brakes somewhere between one and the 2-3-4 sequence. I had 2 wheels deliberately in the dirt on each of the esses, but must have taken a bad bounce midway through #4. The car was backwards almost immediately. The front of the car is very light at that point, and with tires in the dirt, there is just no forgiveness.

I agree that there should be improvements to the curbing. Either make them wider and graduated (FIA style) or make them imposing like those at CMP. Just the thought of hitting the gators in 3 and 14 at CMP sends chills down my spine.

Driving 2-3-4 without using the dirt was very challenging and required significantly slowing from the speed carried through turn 1. I would almost consent to using hay bales on the gators to "enforce" the don't use the dirt philosophy. That would slow traffic through a slightly risky section of track.

Darned shame that my first lap on Sunday doesn't qualify for "timed lap" status since it was in the 54 sec. range. The second lap carried even more speed.....a bit too much speed as it turned out.

Regarding 15 or 20 min sessions. I thought the last, combined student session of 30 minutes was just about right for my tastes. Admittedly I was a passenger and was pretty pooped when it was time for the time trial. Being one of the instructors with 2 students I'll confess to being almost too tired to TT at the end of the day.

I propose a new rule for students. No sticky tires without really good, supportive seats. My two students will know what I mean. Lots of fun riding with them, but real work staying in the car.
Charlie G

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel

Tarheel Sports Car Club Time Trial Series
VIR Patriot Course 9-11-04

ASP Bill Hutchens 198 M3 LTW 52.111

BSP Bill Gratton 21 M3 55.954
BSP J Vervaeche 2 M3 56.916
BSP John King 360 M3 1:00.101

CSP Ron Spencer 3 Civic 55.098
CSP Thomas Price 74 Integra 55.957
CSP Mark Hughes 29 RX7 56.916
CSP T. Appleman 27 Miata 1:01.832
CSP J. Evans 292 Miata DNF

DSP C.Guthrie 5 325is 55.518
DSP Mike Whitney 32 325is 55.723
DSP Forest Secosky 82 325is 55.934
DSP B.Brenneman 704 325is 56.422
DSP Matt Nicholson 92 SE-R 56.878
DSP April Curtis 38 325is 57.300
DSP M.Durham 25 Integra 59.575
DSP Peter Guthrie 51 SE-R 1:03.199

ESP Art McDonald 30 Mustang 57.688
ESP Louis Masden 66 Plymouth 1 :02.097

ZSP Roddy Sugg 95 280Z 55.147
ZSP Tom Barnett 32 300X 56.033
ZSP Mark Ulrich 96 240Z 58.530

SPU Matt Graham 31 Radical 50.353
SPU Mark Skeen 144 2002 53.553

SPO John Hechmovich 79 C3 53.232
SPO Patrice Bosquet 87 911 53.400
SPO John Tedder 8 280Z 55.593

SSB Gary Kole 47 Focus 59.499

ITB Kirk Knestis 42 VW Golf 59.053

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Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Lou I used to be on that list could you send it to me? dteague at nc dot rr dot com . Glad to hear it ran well I hope in two weeks to have my 73 challenger on the road, I used to own a 64 barracuda... but it rusted out from underneath me... but that is how I new it was a valiant with a dart front end...

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

First, to Lou Madsen -- a fine job of driving! And I'm jealous of your car .. no, not exactly your car .. but my first car was a 1966 Falcon w/optional Fairlane 6 cylinder and 3 on the tree, silver blue 2 door. Last seen at Howard Ford in Durham, early June 1981. VIN 6F01T143287. It was probably reincarnated (recycled) into a 1982 Reliant, and shortly thereafter into a toaster oven, but I still hope I'll find it again.

Now to ruffle feathers -- I guess the rules don't prohibit modifying the course by deliberately driving in the dirt, but I think it's setting a bad precedent. In the orientation Saturday morning Chuck told us that turn 4 was dangerous and that doing things to unsettle the car there was asking for visit with the armco. Deliberately driving off the pavement not only unsettles your car, it tends to bring debris onto the track for everyone else to enjoy. Now granted, I ran up on the gators in a number of turns, but I tried to avoid going into the dirt everywhere except track out on 11, where the gators ran out early. So a simple proposal:

TT is similar to a Solo I, and a step up from Solo II, as opposed to a dumbed down IT race or high speed rallycross. Why not place a cone on the inside and outside of each turn (just off the pavement or gators) during the TT sessions? If you punt one, you eat the standard 2 second penalty. Now I don't know how we work this out with the corner workers, but it will make people drive the course as it is paved.

If my humble proposal is unacceptable to the road racing crowd (I'm not really picking on you guys - I know there would be no HPDE/TT series without you), then just require drivers who plan to go off-road to run Hoosier Dirt Stockers.

Art
who likes nice, smooth pavement, because there is none in Durham....

Art I don't recall ever seeing any debris from the wheels in the dirt (except some grass). It surprised me because I expected to set lots of it.....mostly from MY car!!

Chuck is right about turn 4 IF you have some turn dialed into the steering. I always made sure I crested the hill (in the dirt) with the wheels perfectly straight. It certainly unsettled the car (thats putting it rather mildly!) but never changed the direction of it. Thats why I felt comfortable having the car over there almost every lap. But you are correct, it could easily bite someone badly.

I understand Mark V made some suggestions to VIR about changes to be made. One was to put some more pavement up on the top of turn 4 since many went there deliberately and some without wanting to which may have lead to the impacts. I'd be all for that!


Ron

I did see a lot of debris enter the track at turn 4 from an instructor's car that I was following in the last session - I specifically remember a pretty big rock that I cringed at when it bounced up & hit the front of my car.

I put the left tires in the dirt a couple of times through there, but the second time I did it I looked over & saw (or maybe imagined?) the corner worker shaking his head at me. From then on, I stuck to the gators.

I dunno. I only drove a couple stints in the Miata, but when I did, T4 didn't seem like all that big a deal to me. Just grab a little brake at turn-in for T2 and go up the hill with your foot on the floor. That piece of curbing on driver's left at the very top of the hill just kind of caught the car and kept anything bad from happening.

Maybe that was just me in a low horsepower car (which happens to not belong to me...)

:shrug:

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Entry speed, my friend, entry speed. Imagine going into 2/3 about 5-10 mph faster than you were. You run out of track at 4 and HAVE TO go "partially" off with wheels in the dirt. I did it a few times and decided I won't do that any more - lap times be damned.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

So how much time should Toyo RA1's (what I plan to have next time) and a good set of track pads yield on this course? (vs. really good street tires & fading Bobcats) Seems like it might be a second or two, but I'm used to autox times, so this is new territory to me...

Sorry, but cutting corners is part of running qualificating or TIme Trial
Laps. Some tracks like Road Atlanta turn 3, make it a necessary for
a fast lap. VIR-Patriot can be added to the list. THere is an added
variable in T4 in that the crest of the hill is making cars light and
some spun by trying to fight where the car wanted to by not
going 4 off. I've offered two suggestions to VIR about improving
T4 as well as the track in general. Both involve adding paving to
facalite or create an excape route.

However specefic to clipping the grass:
As long as you keep two wheels on the pavement,
where the rest of the car is located is not an issue.
I'm not about to put DNF cones on corners. THis is not an autocross.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

OK, I'll be the one dissenter with some qualifications. I did not like the track that much for the amount of tire abuse. I felt is was poorly designed, at least for the direction we were going. You had to ignore the course and drive on dirt to be fast. Steep hills are for going down, not up. To me, that's a track with poor flow. The final three turns where just annoying.

I do think the event was well run and Mark Hughes was a great help getting me going on Sunday.

Now the qualifications. I was in a street car (but on Azenis) since my track car was in the shop. I also only drove Sunday. Perhaps I just needed to get a better feel for the track or I'm spoiled by the track car. I'm not sure. I'd give it a go again next year if it was on the schedule. I didn't submit an evaluation because I didn't have a good feel after only one day.

Mark

Finally. I knew there must be SOMONE out there with an oposing view.
Any others? Like to hear from you too? A good point raised is
we have not driven it in the other direction. What we know of the
North Course and South Course it may be more enjoyable the other direction
and I would probably insist that we be allowed to do that should we go back.

However, that event is over and its time to get ready for CMP
and the years end points final.

_________________
Mark Vitacco
THSCC TT Chairman
mvitacco@bellsouth.net

Roebling is FAR more abusive to tires, and CMP is FAR more abusive to brake systems.

Hey Guy's and Gal's,

Sorry for the late reply but work would not wait. I too had a Great Time at VIR P and can't thank Mark, Stacy, Ron, Matt and the Rest of the "Get it done" Gang. You guy's really stepped up and kept thing's running very well even with the on Track Incidents and the problem with the set up of the Pit enter/exit issue's.
As for Track lay out, I was one who thought it might not be all that much fun but I was wrong, I am sure it would be very hard to lay out the perfect track from a plain piece of land, much less within Track. Truth is, I too would love to seen the 2,3,4 section a little more Open but also feel this is one of the area's that put the smaller/lower HP car's right up with the other's. I found once I worked up to some of what was available at turn 1, then something had to be done before or during 2,3 or 4. In my case, I found a quick touch of brake at the bottom of the Hill instead of later worked well. Always seemed to gain on folks trying to wait later to slow or fighting slowing. Just the old fashion "Slow in Fast out."
That said, I know in the Time trial I had to fight the idea of what I saw other's doing. I too was climbing curbs but never more than half my car up there. I was waiting to fun when I saw a car drive with the Right tire over the Gator on Drivers left, and He was fast. I believe it was SPO driver Jogn Hechmovich in his Awesome 79 Corvette C3. I had not driven that in Practice/School so couldn't think about trying it now.
As I sat in my Car to run my TT on Sunday, I saw another driver, my friend Charlie, do this on his first lap and though it looked scary, he got away with it. Trouble is, it looked like Our nature is to try and get a little more. On lap two, he seemed to be further off at "3" and THIS is when I felt he was in trouble. I had already grabbed my door to jump out. My bad Habit of thinking I need to run to help. Don't do this offcourse.
I hated it for Charlie and especially His Son who was watching. I guess we all will be reminded from time to time, this sport can be dangerous but thank God, just for Our Car's this time.
This Track is New to us all and I am sure we will still Improve. I know Real Racer's have to Go Fast "right now" but I just don't do this often enough to do that. I think Charlie has told me He spent less than $3,000 for his car so I am Hoping and fairly sure, We will See Him and the other unlucky folks back out soon.
I've been there guy's, don't beat your self's up. It truly goes to show, No Novice was a good idea from the Staff.
I would Go Back to this track but would like to try it Clock Wise mostly because I just like to do a new track. I do feel something has to be done with the Pit enter/exit and maybe at least some gravel Paddock or at least Cut the Grass "lower" on the Friday before the event. In my case, I live below Fayetteville, NC and if Voting, I would not want to Pay much more for this site. If much more, Roeblin Road is only 1 HR more from my home and can hold more car's per session and there for, maybe more profitable for the Club's. I don't know these thing's. Just wondering.
I am glad I choose not to be an instructor as riding one session with David Helwig in the Sweet Saleen Mustang, I not feel so good for over an hour.
I don't have any extra part's to offer for a BMW...YET but if the Miata guys end up needing wheel's, I do still have 4 factory Wheels from a 2000.
Again, Thanks all,
Really Surpassed my expectations,

Bill Gratton
#21 M3

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Folks, Alway's be aware. I work out of town and it may be a while before I can read mail. Thanks,
Bill Gratton
caines21@wmconnect.com
910 670 1302

Forgot about Dick's question on Breaking. I found the Brake's use to be just shy of what VIR S. Seemed to me it was because of very slow turn's followed both hard Braking area's. In fact, after the Great Class Room help from Chuck, I found it best to have a little left foot break on while "gently" applying throttle to get around the last corner (11?).

Dick you should also bring your F Ford I would think. Very Smooth Pavement and with the power to weight, the hill's (up or down) should not effect You as much as us Sedan's I would guess. That said, I am sure you can, would scare your self silly too. I would guess that driving Matt's Radical though very fun, was very Draining if Sessions had been 30 min. Simply no Rest times.

I'm sure Matt could use the Challenge too.

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Folks, Alway's be aware. I work out of town and it may be a while before I can read mail. Thanks,
Bill Gratton
caines21@wmconnect.com
910 670 1302