2014-2016 Chump rules are out

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:13 pm

steve remchak wrote:

and locking in rules for three years

He will have at least 2 revisions before the new year.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:49 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

and locking in rules for three years

He will have at least 2 revisions before the new year.

Car values won't change much after 12/31/13 which is the important thing.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:29 pm

steve remchak wrote:

Ryan Holton wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

and locking in rules for three years

He will have at least 2 revisions before the new year.

Car values won't change much after 12/31/13 which is the important thing.

All the rules in the world won't help if you don't enforce them

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:56 pm

A lot of the problem is Chumpcar doesn't understand their own rules. There was a lot of bitching about a E36 that podiumed at the VIR 24 that had an OBD-II crank sensor, apparently indicative of other shift business. Another E36 or BMW team pointed it out and was ignored. John then got high and mighty int he post-VIR thread about putting money up to file a protest.... which was illegal after the checker flag flew as per the rules. I haven't read the rule book cover to cover yet but I'm not sure they addressed the issue of 'after an an event there is no way to force Chump to address a cheaty car.'

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

JamesMilko wrote:

A lot of the problem is Chumpcar doesn't understand their own rules. There was a lot of bitching about a E36 that podiumed at the VIR 24 that had an OBD-II crank sensor, apparently indicative of other shift business. Another E36 or BMW team pointed it out and was ignored. John then got high and mighty int he post-VIR thread about putting money up to file a protest.... which was illegal after the checker flag flew as per the rules. I haven't read the rule book cover to cover yet but I'm not sure they addressed the issue of 'after an an event there is no way to force Chump to address a cheaty car.'

not that i'm defending the current state of affairs, but protest and impound rules are substantially different next year. also a little bird told me that revised rules, including multiple changed mpv, will be published on or about sep 14. finally, chumpcar isn't perfect but at least it's racing, not a circus.

Roger McDaniels · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:54 pm

Bernie Baake wrote:

JamesMilko wrote:

Looks like Bernie is set now.

Unfortunately she's blown up again and I haven't had the time or place to rebuild it again. And it still needs a dash bar....Many people have died because of the lack of one, so I've been told by Chump inspection

I'm still seeing a dash bar as "recommended but not required". So far they haven't given us any grief about it in the Duff car. I've noticed that tech inspectors can be pretty arbitrary though.

Charlie Guthrie · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm **Posts:** 832

Vincent wrote:

Quote:

John Condren has taken something simple and made it complicated. He must be German. :stick:

Vincent, did you look behind his sunglasses to see if there was a CEL glowing?

Quote:

If you want to win, you'll probably have to cheat.

And about this one Vincent....are you "prepared" to win? :lol:

Seriously considering hanging out at CMP for the September running of the crap cans.
Charlie G

Roger McDaniels · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Look us up if you come out. We should have an air-conditioned lounge and a lot of homemade beer. We may even have a race car on track.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I'll just point out that in impound at CMS this year, we were sitting in 2nd place behind Sri's cheaty 328. We saw several things that we could protest and chose not to! Nothing wrong with 2nd place, no MOV laps for us

If the guys in 3rd place had beat us, I'd have a $50 on the hood faster than you can say "VTEC CRX".

Sure there is cheating, and I have no problem with Chump putting onus on us competitors to pony up the cash for protests. I'm looking forward to seeing more protests, should help to set the tone of the series in a more rule-following context.

Now, on the MPV list, don't get me started. Because I need to go back to searching Craiglist for a VTEC Prelude...

I'd start over with something American because the values are so low, but I have 23 years of Honda experience and 14 years messing with BMWs, and it's not time to start over. The other ringers will be dealt with, I'm sure.

Roger McDaniels · **Posted:** Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:28 am

So is "VTEC CRX" cheatier than "B20 Integra"?

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:23 am

Roger McDaniels wrote:

So is "VTEC CRX" cheatier than "B20 Integra"?

You know I at first thought a B20 Integra was all sorts of cheat, then I went looked at how damn cheap you can get the motors and how little effort it takes to put it in the car. B20 Integra, seems legit to me.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Roger McDaniels wrote:

So is "VTEC CRX" cheatier than "B20 Integra"?

hugely. they claimed it was the stock motor, when it was a b16a. we claim our b20 bottom end, it doesn't add much and is 100% direct bolt in. bear in mind we only rev it to 6500 rpm (at least i do) so we're trading some top end power for durability.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

But the B16 is a stock motor in the CRX... for a Japanese market only SiR. :v

Roger McDaniels · **Posted:** Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:28 am

Ah, I was thinking single-cam. A stock CRX comes with a D16A6, and you can bolt a $50-$100 single cam VTEC (D16Z6 or D16Y8) head to it for a nice compression bump and a 20+ HP increase. That's basically what we do with the Duff car. It's not as good as a dual-cam motor, but it's pretty good for a single-cam and it's about as reliable as any other single-cam motor. A B16A in good running condition exceeds the allowed value of the car, basically doubles it if you include the transmission.

As for a B20, I don't see where it would be more reliable than a B18A/B, and it's probably less reliable than just about any other B-series with it's weaker sleeves and poorer R/S ratio, but it does let you use a dual-cam transmission, the worst of which is better than the best single-cam transmission, and you get more torque in a broader band than with any other B-series. Of course if you get the USDM B20Z2 or the JDM B20B, then you also get more top end than any of the non-VTEC B18's that would have been found in a US Integra, making it a pretty good upgrade for road-racing purposes, although it doesn't have as broad a torque band as the USDM B20B, so I'm not sure that the extra 16 HP is worth it.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Roger McDaniels wrote:

Ah, I was thinking single-cam. A stock CRX comes with a D16A6, and you can bolt a $50-$100 single cam VTEC (D16Z6 or D16Y8) head to it for a nice compression bump and a 20+ HP increase. That's basically what we do with the Duff car. It's not as good as a dual-cam motor, but it's pretty good for a single-cam and it's about as reliable as any other single-cam motor. A B16A in good running condition exceeds the allowed value of the car, basically doubles it if you include the transmission.

As for a B20, I don't see where it would be more reliable than a B18A/B, and it's probably less reliable than just about any other B-series with it's weaker sleeves and poorer R/S ratio, but it does let you use a dual-cam transmission, the worst of which is better than the best single-cam transmission, and you get more torque in a broader band than with any other B-series. Of course if you get the USDM B20Z2 or the JDM B20B, then you also get more top end than any of the non-VTEC B18's that would have been found in a US Integra, making it a pretty good upgrade for road-racing purposes, although it doesn't have as broad a torque band as the USDM B20B, so I'm not sure that the extra 16 HP is worth it.

b20 has more low end torque which is nice in slow turns when you don't want to use 2nd gear (unless you're mike whitney), and the lower revs means less oil consumption and lower fuel burn (although it's offset by displacement so kind of a wash). it's a small difference, max with a b18 is very nearly as fast and at some tracks like vir has to perform fewer gear changes. both cars will be at thscc this weekend so i'm expecting a showdown at some point

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