RA1's: To shave or not to shave

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:19 pm

JamesMilko wrote:

NT-01s are pretty much RA-1s with less tread. Not sure about the carcass but the rubber is the same.

Toyo said the same thing when the R888 came out...same compound but a different structure.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

i was told that the 888 and nt01 were the same rubber but different carcass. no idea if it's true or not. i'm no fan of the 888 due to the unusual wear characteristics that i (and others) experienced but that's more likely a carcass issue than a rubber issue. most folks seem to like the nt01s.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:53 pm

I was told the carcass is the same NT-01 and RA1 - The compound is the same on the R888 and NT-01 and the tread pattern is different??????

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:12 pm

triple 8s like low..low starting pressures. or so I'm told.

i also like to start my RA-1s around 25 / 26 in the morning.

Kevin Butler · **Posted:** Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:46 pm

I went through my first set of shaved RA1s in about 3 weekends. That was with the Spec E30 that obviously needs more suspension/alignment attention. Needless to say, it's quite demoralizing to burn up a set of tires in 3 weekends when you're used to getting 12+(Miata).

I always ran full treads on my Miata. Tread squirm made things a bit of a handfull at the end of quicker straights, but after 2 sessions that would be gone.

If you're concerned about being as competitive and fast as you can be, as in racing, then shave. If you're just DEing and TTing I'd go full tread.

My next set for the SE30 will be full tread.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:24 pm

Jim,
You are talking as a racer and not really as a Advance HPDE person. Yes, shaved will be faster, but I just finished running a set of Full tread RA-1s down to a nice clean shaved level. I would not use them for Racing or TT, but for those 3-4 fun laps they worked great. Once they were down to a good level I started to use them for the competition level and they have worked very well, and I am keeping a set of full treads in the trailer as rain tires and the HPDE tires. As one tire cycles out, the other is just hitting it's prime. Plus I don't have to keep a separate set of rains.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:17 pm

Marty Howard wrote:

You are talking as a racer and not really as a Advance HPDE person.

I ran shaved RA1's in HPDE and TT :-)

For racing, no way would I run full tread depth. Most likely, it will cost you money.

For HPDE, I guess it is want you want. RA1's from 4/32nds down to the cord are fast and don't give up much through that range in grip or braking. If you figure it takes one, maybe two weekends to get them to 4/32nds, how much fun factor have you given up fighting them?

A good example, you want to work on compressing your braking zone (that is where the difference in my 2:14.1 and the track record 2:13.1 is). Your braking zone is a lot longer with full depth tires than shaved. So running the full depth tires pretty much tosses that weekend out the window. Don't believe me...it is at least 1 marker and more like 2 markers.

So it is what you want from HPDE...maximize your fun and learning experience or try and get an extra weekend out of tires :-)

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:22 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

So it is what you want from HPDE...maximize your fun and learning experience or try and get an extra weekend out of tires :-)

I think you're both right and it depends upon the driver. For a complete newb, full tread tires aren't going to be the thing holding back better times. If you're experienced, full tread tires might frustrate you to a point of not making it enjoyable. - AB

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:40 pm

I'm on my second set of full tread RA-1s and I love them

As was mentioned, the key is having someone (THANKS MARK!!) to flip them on the wheels between events to get even wear.

As a first set of R-comps, I think full tread is the way to go. They are more forgiving than slicks or shaved, so the learning curve is flattened a bit. But it only takes a couple sessions to get used to them/work the squirm out.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:45 pm

I have to agree with Stacy, the Squirm was gone by the middle of the second session on the current tires. With rotation they have worn great and now getting to there prime.

I think the revised RA1's have gotten ride of a lot of that initial squirm of the originals and it doesn't take much to get them feeling right now.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

jim is absolutely correct, and pretty much echoes what i said before. full tread will last longest, you'll get the highest number of laps per dollar spent. but those laps will be slower than if you shaved them, and less consistent. so the end user has to decide - do i want to maximize my budget, or minimize my lap times? because you can't do both. doing 20+ events this year i've gone thru a LOT of tires - some new, some used, some streets, some r-comps, several different brands, etc - and have reached the conclusion that trying to eke out the maximum number of laps per tire in order to stretch my budget results in slower times and diminished enjoyment for me. and it's just not worth it; if you're switching to r-comps do it right. that means shaved ra1s for the dry and full tread for wet. or choose another tire that doesn't require shaving like 888, nt01,bfg r1,etc.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:39 pm

wait, when does this discussion turn back to "HPDE is about education"?

i can see where the racers of the group use HPDE as a test session / seat time in their race cars. but i'm not sure Stephen has quite reached that point in his career. since he has been doing HPDEs now for 3 or more years on street tires i suspect he will about wet himself no matter what configuration his R-Comps happen to be.

my suggestion Stephen now that i have thought about this some more, shave them. since you are used to dropping mortgage-size money on auto-X tires it won't shock the system that much. and you will have a really big smile on your face for at least three or four events.

my first time on R-Comps was North Course. V-710 takeoffs. up thru the stevie wonders and beyond gave me a chubby. :lol:

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:23 pm

steve remchak wrote:

wait, when does this discussion turn back to "HPDE is about education"?

It is about eduction. You want to get better every time out. One of those lesson is compressing the braking zone. On VIR full course you want to compress the breaking zone into 14. You want confidence and consistency in your tires as you move to 2, to 1 and beyond 1.

One caveat...I get Toyo money. Last month I earned $300 worth of Toyo bucks :-)

Even with a crappy season, I have 5 tires coming for 2011.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:41 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

wait, when does this discussion turn back to "HPDE is about education"?

It is about eduction. You want to get better every time out. One of those lesson is compressing the braking zone. On VIR full course you want to compress the breaking zone into 14. You want confidence and consistency in your tires as you move to 2, to 1 and beyond 1.

One caveat...I get Toyo money. Last month I earned $300 worth of Toyo bucks :-)

Even with a crappy season, I have 5 tires coming for 2011.

you are assuming that everyone is at the level of braking at 2, much less 1. Everyone was at a level where the equipment is not the biggest factor and the difference between a shaved tire and a full tread won't make as much impact and will save money. Not everyone has the free tires and isn't chasing 10ths, but full seconds. The amount of money saved could mean 1 more weekend at the track for the year.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

if your driving skill is such that you're still measuring improvement in second+ intervals, you're probably not ready for r-comps. yes the increased grip will make you faster but it will also mask your driving flaws, hindering improvement. they also have less audible warning and more abrupt breakaway characteristics which can be tricky for those not equipped to handle it. generally i suggest that people move to r-comps only when they are consistently pushing high quality street tires to their limit (overheating, etc).

earlier this year i had a student who showed up with a bone stock 175k mile e46 bmw on hoosiers. he was a decent driver but the tires were clearly saving his ass several times a session, they overwhelmed the chassis, and he didn't make a lot of progress. i suggested that he ditch the hoosiers, firm up the suspension, and run street tires instead. a few months later he requested me again as an instructor and had done exactly what i suggested. this time his mistakes were glaringly obvious and together we worked hard to overcome them. by the end of the weekend he had made dramatic improvement and was much smoother around the track, with correspondingly faster lap times.

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