Head and Neck Restraints - what's the news these days?

Kevin Harvey · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:42 pm

Stacy King wrote:

The G-force helmets I've noticed aren't very "low" as far as how far they extend down below a person's jaw-line. In fact, I've noticed while on grid that I can actually see people's chins when they are wearing some of the G-force helmets, but usually not other brands.

I have noticed that on a lot of helmets and I see it on grid often. I always attributed it to someone getting a helmet that was too small, never thought about it being a helmet style.

Coming from riding motorcycles almost my entire life, I don't like having my chin below the line of my helmet.

-Kevin

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:12 pm

Marty Howard wrote:

Stacy,
I will say that when I tried both I found the Dfender seem to have better left-right-and up-down movements than the HANS, but then again, I have a longer neck.

Malia and I tried both the Hans and the Defnder (and the R3) this weekend, and for both of us this was the exact opposite. The Defender had clearance issues at the shoulder for both of us - specifically where the "extra" tethers attach on the top of the shoulder bars. Part of this could be that both of us have Zamp helmets - had they been 3/4" shorter we probably wouldn't have had much issue, but head rotation was clearly hindered as the chin of the helmet would "ride up" the shoulder bars on the Defnder. The "look down to see your harness buckles" clearance was clearly easier on the Hans as well.

The R3 seemed decent enough, and the fact that it would provide some protection even on 3-point stock belts was a nice feature, and it was reasonably comfortable.... IF you don't have breasts. The R3 was clearly NOT designed for the female anatomy, and since we were looking to find a HNR that we could share if possible, that put this one much further down the list. If I were to get one just for myself, the R3 would have gotten serious consideration.

I really wanted the Defnder to work, but we ended up buying a Hans and a second set of quick disconnect mounts for my helmet. As mentioned above, the quick-disconnect hardware for Hans is top notch, and Malia was able to get it connected first time sitting in the car without help. She was able to use it for her last session yesterday and said that it allowed good enough movement to not restrict anything but the long "out the side window" look-ahead through the exit of Carousel.

One final note - having Linda from Apex install the hardware (for free) was an excellent choice. They've done hundreds of installs, and it took them well over an hour on our helmets (evidently these Zamps are thicker shells, and use a LOT of glue between the shell and the foam, where you have to get the washer/nut wedged in behind. They said we could ship our helmets to them and they'd install, but having them done at the track between sessions was a great bonus.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:43 pm

I bought a HANS before there were many other options, and I've since upgraded it to the sliding tethers. The only "complaint" I could make was noted by Stacy and that's that it doesn't really "hold" the belts at all. But that's really only a problem for getting things tightened up as the shoulder belts can fall off before you tighten, so you just get diligent about holding them when you first snug. Once they are even slightly snug, they stay just fine.

And for what this is worth, I know a handful of "real" pro drivers and every single one wears a HANS. *shrug*

Oh, and yeah, the quick release hardware is nice. I have never had a single problem with it.

--Donnie

Kevin Harvey · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:37 pm

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

She was able to use it for her last session yesterday and said that it allowed good enough movement to not restrict anything but the long "out the side window" look-ahead through the exit of Carousel.

That concerns me somewhat and also explains something. I'll give you an example...

At CMP coming into T11, I swivel my head in the last 1/3 of the braking zone to look out the driver window up to T12. What you are describing will not allow me to do that.

I was working with my student yesterday trying to get his vision up and to not focus (zone in) on the end of the braking zone and the turn in point. and each time coming into T11 I could see that he was not moving his head as far left as I move mine. He was wearing a HANS and I did not think to look to see if the tether was preventing him from moving his head further.

Interesting..... something for me to consider as I have been told that my head swivels as if it is on a stick when I am driving. I have been told other things about my driving, but we will leave that alone, haha. If the tethers are going to prevent that, I imagine it would have a direct effect on my driving.

-Kevin

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:40 pm

Kevin Harvey wrote:

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

She was able to use it for her last session yesterday and said that it allowed good enough movement to not restrict anything but the long "out the side window" look-ahead through the exit of Carousel.

That concerns me somewhat and also explains something. I'll give you an example...

At CMP coming into T11, I swivel my head in the last 1/3 of the braking zone to look out the driver window up to T12. What you are describing will not allow me to do that.

I was working with my student yesterday trying to get his vision up and to not focus (zone in) on the end of the braking zone and the turn in point. and each time coming into T11 I could see that he was not moving his head as far left as I move mine. He was wearing a HANS and I did not think to look to see if the tether was preventing him from moving his head further.

Interesting..... something for me to consider as I have been told that my head swivels as if it is on a stick when I am driving. I have been told other things about my driving, but we will leave that alone, haha. If the tethers are going to prevent that, I imagine it would have a direct effect on my driving.

-Kevin

train your eyes, not your head. start looking earlier Kevin. :lol:

someone once told me if you need to turn your head that much, you are probably already boned.

i was watching a ball game yesterday and a D-back caught the facemask of the receiver twisting his helmet in the middle of the catch. what i found interesting was the reciever's eyes and the concentration on the ball. he nearly made the catch even though the D-Back had clearly interfered with his process. the receiver never took his eyes off the ball.

Kevin Harvey · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:55 pm

Steve,

I see your point and I am pretty certain that I do "lead with my eyes". I probably move my head more than most. In this example, I am looking towards T12 while braking for T11. When I clear the T11 corner worker station, my eyes are on the T12 corner worker station.

Unless you have eyes that look out the side of your head, I don't know how you could possibly see from the braking zone of T11 to the corner worker station of T12 without moving your head (a lot). That is a 138 degree turn.

Come ride with me sometime....

-Kevin

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:39 pm

no thanks on the ride Kevin. i get car sick.

once you clear the "kink" you should be looking at the turn 12 worker's station. over top of the turn 11 worker's station. think about it for a second.

by the time you are in 11 you are already set-up for twelve. so by looking toward the worker station you are "double checking" to be sure nothing new has cropped up in front of you "short-notice".

between 11 & 12 you should have already given 14 a glance also.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:32 pm

I have no complaints for the HANS. Mine does have the belt guides and I know they help hold the belts in when I am strapping in.

When I got mine, the sliding tethers were just being released (well, released 60 days after I got it). I purchased a new helmet this summer and upgraded the tethers finally.

The biggest benefit of the sliding tethers for me at least is in the paddock. I can look around when backing out of the paddock spot. I almost backed into some woman driving way too fast through the VIR paddock one day.

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:33 pm

One more thing on the Defnder that I didn't mention earlier - The design of that particular HNR wedges the belt between the shoulder pads and the rigid (plastic/metal) braces. When we tried it in the car with our GForce pull-down belts, you really had to wedge the belt slide-adjuster mechanism between the brace and pad. Maybe a non-issue, but I think would scrape up the brace over time, at best.

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

One more thing on the Defnder that I didn't mention earlier - The design of that particular HNR wedges the belt between the shoulder pads and the rigid (plastic/metal) braces. When we tried it in the car with our GForce pull-down belts, you really had to wedge the belt slide-adjuster mechanism between the brace and pad. Maybe a non-issue, but I think would scrape up the brace over time, at best.

Yeah - I wonder if in a 'full panic' exit from the car (fire), there wouldn't be some risk of jamming a belt adjuster in there.

How did the R3 feel as far as ability to turn your head?

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:24 pm

KendtEklund wrote:

How did the R3 feel as far as ability to turn your head?

Didn't have tethers on my helmet for it, and since it was a no-go for Malia we didn't get that far. But plenty of others using it though so I'd imagine somebody with longer term experience can comment.

Kevin Butler · **Posted:** Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:57 am

KendtEklund wrote:

How did the R3 feel as far as ability to turn your head?

If you buy an R3 you definitely need to get the sliding tether kit available for it. It does take a while to "break in" and slide freely as it should. It still limits your head motion, but not so much that you feel you are "blind" in certain situations. With any H&N you need to learn to use your eyes to look around with more rather than moving your visual direction around with your head.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

steve remchak wrote:

no thanks on the ride Kevin. i get car sick.

Yeah I heard about that at VIR a while back... ;-)

Good discussion. I've been looking for one. I see no one mentioned the Isaacs devices? Any reason? Last I checked I think for the D2D crowd they were not FIA or something. They seem to also provide some side impact relief?

The Defender looks pretty good to me. But the point about it maybe getting hooked during exit from something like a fire is a bit of a concern. Isn't that typical of any HANS-type device? I've seen Butlers R3 and that has the benefit of allowing you to move from vehicle to vehicle since the containment uses your own body more than the seat belts.

I'm do for new seat belts so addressing that will go with the collar. They're are a fair number of Hans ready belts out there now.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:02 pm

Isaac isn't SFI and never will be since it needs to be detached in an extra action aside from disconnecting your belts.

The validity of that requirement is another story but as it is currently designed, and how the rules are currently written, it won't be approved. I also remember hearing a lot of bickering about the arm restraints in the HANS vs Isaac device comparison video. Something about one of the arms being restrained differently to force the HANS to pop out of the belts.

Here is what they have to say about it. http://www.isaacdirect.com/SFI.html

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