THSCC Forums

It sounds like you have the right attitude Gwen. While all of the above is great advice, I tend to lean towards the "don't worry about it and just f'n drive" end of the spectrum. It is too much mental clutter for me to think about all the other stuff and I think that gets a lot of people into trouble with the mental aspect of the sport. Just stick to what you've been doing and you'll be fine.



I honestly think people put way too much emphasis on this as well. Not to pick on you Chuck but it seems like it almost becomes a built-in excuse for not doing well. While I don't think you can show up in a total heap of a car and expect to win all the time, I think most people would be surprised how well you can do in a car that isn't "100% prepared".

My old CRX was certainly nowhere close to being 100% prepared and it didn't do too badly. I'd estimate that the 2 times I brought it out to nationals that is was probably somewhere in the high-teens as far as the best car on the grid. Just ask anybody who ever drove it compared to a well prepped car-- the word "turd" comes to mind.

The Type R hasn't really been that much closer. Everybody seems to think it is well prepped but David and I have been driving around on blown rear shocks the past 2 years and I never even had the alignment checked until near the beginning of *this* year. Guess what? The car had just over a 1/2" of toe out in the front and the rear wasn't square to the rest of the chassis.

The only reason I had it checked was the fact that it seemed to develop some torque steer on the street in 1st and 2nd gear. I never quite figured out what was up with that until I took the front suspension apart a few weeks after nationals. The result?

A few "suspect" bushings in the lower front control arm:




Amazingly the car still drove in a straight line and held a static alignment! Of course it was wobbling all over the place when the car was placed under any kind of load but it still wasn't slow by any means.

Anyway, don't get caught up in all the little details for your first few events. Just go out and have fun and let things fall where they may. If you decide you like it, then you can start obsessing over all the details like the rest of us nutjobs. Well, most of us anyway...

Jim

I agree with Jim on both the "mental" (Just drive) and the car prep level. My ASP winning Lotus was almost Stock legal (taller/stiffer rear springs, and Hoosier Autocrossers). Everything else was Stock and California Smog legal since we had just moved here. The engine "blew up" the next spring. I was on the protest committee one year when a high mileage Honda was torn down and the biggest concern was whether the tired engine would still be within wear limits (it was as I recall).

Dick

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

My first National event was the 2001 Petersburg ProSolo. It was only my 2nd year of autocrossing and I felt like I was going to be seriously woodshedded. I bought some Hoosiers for the event (GS Toyota Celica GTS) and already had Konis. Aside from that, I had no prep. Fortunately, Emmie and other THSCC members guided me through the weekend. By just driving the best I could and not worrying about how I was doing, ended up 6th out of about 15 in my class, just missing the trophies. I was pumped.

Two weeks later, with my ego fully inflated, I headed to Peru Indiana for my first Tour event. Day 1, I was a little above mid-pack, with Shawn Whipple behind me by about .6 second. I was confident that I would move up.... and completely over drove day 2, finishing about a second behind Shawn. I got overconfident.

Since then, while I want to win every time out, I have realistic expectations. My co-driver and I can't settle on a car for more than 2 years and tend to not go with the known commodity (BS RX-8 and GS Celica GT being the exceptions).

I find I drive the best when I focus on my coursewalks. After 2005's Nationals, I decided that coursewalks were my big downfall. Unfortunately, I only seem to really focus on them during the National Championships.... getting sucked into catching up with friends and joking around during them at Tours and ProSolos. I guess when I have two days to walk courses, I know them a little better

Regardless, I would go into your first event with no expectations and you will likely surprise yourself. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Well, when I was writing that I was thinking of my M5 (which I've been autocrossing since the 330i ZHP went to GA Tech ) actually. It is classed in ESP, and nothing short of massive destruction of that car would ever even get it close to being remotely an "ESP" car. Somehow it would need to lose 1000lbs too. Anyway, unless I buy a class competitive car and get serious about it, I'm only out to have fun in the first place. Something about the ZHP destroying the edges of front A6s in less than 20 runs kind of took the fun out of really trying to use a camber-challenged BMW for a season of stock class autocrossing at a serious level. $280 a tire and all... Hence the comment about the R1s I switched to on the 330i. I really doubt that any top competitor at the Nationals wants to use R1s, but I suppose stranger thing are possible.

Back on the 330i alignment...given the state of a camber challenged strut suspended stock class BMW, it needs all the prep it can get to not deplete the bank account with tires costing $1200 a set and all. A serious season of campaigning that car would need a tire budget nearing $5k (or more even with two people driving it).

By the way, Jackie and I co-drove it an at autox in Atlanta in October in STX class (no mods, just using its Star Spec street tires). It did well against the STX class competitors. If it was here, I think that is where I'd gravitate toward.

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Jim,

I can understand not obsessing about car preparation to a point, but do you think it makes since to ignore it THAT much? I mean, maybe it's just me, but if I was going to take the time to compete at Tour events and go to the Nationals, in addition to spending all the money on tires, hotels, gas, entry fees, tires, tires...take time off from my business, convince my wife it will be a "fun" experience, etc.. I really can't imagine not bothering to ensure that stuff such as suspension bushings aren't worn too much and ensuring the car is properly aligned -- basic stuff. I guess that is just the engineer in me not wanting to shoot myself in the foot first and then see if I can win the race?

Chuck

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I could be wrong but I'd bet you might be surprised what could be done in a mildly prepped M5 in ESP. I'm not saying you could win Nationals with it but I'd bet you could win a few Tours and Pros depending on who showed up. Unless those things really weigh 4600lbs+, I doubt you'd need to lose 1000lbs.



I definitely know the pain of that all too well. The Type R kills a set of front tires in less than 20 runs as well. It's the main reason most people quit running them. Well, that, and they get stolen. There are a lot of cars in a similar boat so it really comes down to what you're willing to put up with.

If you're planning on only running a few National events in a year (1 Tour + 2 Pros on average), you're really not talking about using up that many tires. If you happen to win some along the way, that obviously helps as well.



Hey, I never said it was wise to follow my lead. One of the first things I told David when we started co-driving was to keep an eye on me and don't ever assume I have any idea that I know what I'm doing.

But really, my main point is that you (collective "you", not you specifically Chuck) don't need to have the perfect car to try one of the bigger events. Nor do I think you should use it as an excuse to go out and try it once or twice to see if you like it. If you don't like it, no harm done and you can at least have the experience of getting out of your local sandbox for a different perspective on things. If you do like it, then perhaps it is time to start thinking about putting yourself in a better position to win.

Or if you're like me and your current car is starting to act up but you're too lazy to fix it, just buy another one...

Honestly, the main reason I didn't look over the Type R very well is that is was fast enough to win when I picked it up. Considering I didn't have a garage or decent work area at the time and the car was doing well, I didn't see any reason to mess with it. Of course, it's been all down hill from there...

Jim

It weighs just under 4000lbs (about 3920 with 1/4 tank). If it was a beater M5, then yeah, I could see creating an ESP car that might have a minor chance at some success, but looking at National caliber ESP cars is a lot different than what I would want to do to my car since it is not and never will be a serious autocross car.

It's a blast to drive nonetheless. Want to co-drive it sometime?

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I hear ya. I wouldn't do anything to it either to compromise its manners on the street or take away from its value. It's definitely way too nice for that.



Um, YEA!

Maybe we can work something out when the season gets under way next year. And you are more than welcome to drive one of my beaters anytime. I'm not above kicking David to the curb for an event! Just kidding Dave!

David and I are both curious what the Type R will be like next season. It finally has fresh shocks on it along with all the important bushings replaced so it should be better than its ever been since I've owned it.

Jim

With regard to the mental aspect: among the countless things I've learned from Chris and Eric is to not dwell on the negative. Rather, focus on the positive, or, at a minimum, focus on the learning experience. Those two are really good at picking things to feel good about, and it's rubbed off on me. "I was really committed to the throttle in <whatever> feature over there." "I used a lot less brake going into the far side of the course on that run." "I got x more pops of limiter over there than I did on my last run." Stuff like that. I find this outlook to be a hell of a lot more enjoyable than searching out ways I boned up a run, which is what I used to do.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Nice thing about being a hard hearted problem solving engineer type is that emotion and negative feelings are minor issues when I don't drive well (or well enough to win). Each autocross run that isn't fast enough mostly triggers the "how/where" can I go faster next time. Even total screwups result in (mostly) what do I concentrate on to "not clip that cone" or whatever. Fortunately the thrill of victory, or at least the "job well done" combined with the pleasure/thrill of a fast autocross run makes it through the "unemotional engineer" shell. Did I mention how much my hands shake after a run . . . I'm not totally without emotion

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Well this topic ran far from the original question. To return, IMHO choose your national event rain tires based on your R compounds to maintain contigency eligibility. At Pros like said it usually doesn't matter what rains you run unless it happens to rain hard both days, but if you switch brands you lose your contingency. We have a set of rock hard Hoosier wets we bought used for such occasions, or if heavy rain we just tool around the course on the A6s for line practice.
Another option is if you are running L-1 or GSL only is to arrange with a GS or HS Mini driver to rent their rain tires on a per run basis should you need them.
Again IMHO Tours are OK but hectic and expensive for as few runs as you get and it's not often you get enough *SL drivers for class contingencies. If planning on running at Lincoln, I would blow off the asphalt tours such as Finger Lakes and stick to the larger concrete sites such as Toledo and Peru (although the grip is good at Peru, the surface is broken and bumpy)
Pro solos are SO MUCH more fun! Toledo PS surface is as close as you'll get size and grip to Lincoln in the east and DC PS Is just a HOOT to do, LARGE courses on as grippy asphalt as you'll find anywhere, elevation changes like a major road course, and an extremely well run event with a very friendly and fun group.

Unless they move the practice course at Lincoln, the area they used this year was atypical of the actual course surface and much tighter. (plus the timing equipment was suspect at best if/when working.) They may address that issue for next year as it was a commonly voiced criticism. The PS Finale is a much better "practice" for the NC since you get at least 12 runs on the Championship surface on a championship size course under competition conditions over 2 days, it gets you in the mind set.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Chuck makes excellent points. Regarding the bumpy high grip Peru surface, experience on bumps with the subsequent "tossing" of the car and short "slides" can be an excellent car control confidence builder when you get those minor grip losses at Nats, etc. You will "know" that the car can come back OK with very minor steering, etc. adjustments. Unless the bumps are likely to break something on your car, I would try to run Peru. At least in the old day, Peru brought out some of the best competition other than Nationals.

What Chuck said about Pros and the Finale is great advice. One thing you might consider Gwen is running the Pros in Open. If you are quick enough to line up against fast drivers you learn very quickly how good your launches are and how hard you have to drive to run with the top dogs. Been there, done that, learned a LOT (never enough but a lot). Plus, once you get comfortable with the pace of Pros, no event will ever seem too high pressure again.

Dick

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I am with Dick and Chuck on this one. I have tried both and much prefer Prosolo to Tour events. Not only do you get double the runs you also get to line up against someone else and if you do well in class you might make one of the Challenges which are really cool as well.

In 2010 the only Tour event I plan to be at is the SeDiv Championship in Moultrie, GA which will be a qualifier for Nationals. Other than that I plan to be at atleast 2 Prosolos.

_________________
2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

What he said.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

I'll agree that in PS open you'll have more opportunity to run directly against other cars in your class. It is really cool to see just where you are slower (or faster) than your competition, especially on courses where you can occasionally get glimpses of the other car at points on the course. On the other hand, L1 is arguably THE most competitive class in AX. In a large open class at a non Finale PS you might have 6-8 entries, and 1 or 2 of those are past national champions, whereas in L-1 at that same event you'll have 12 - 16 entries and 50-75% of those have NC jackets in their closet.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.