THSCC Forums

New PAX values are out:

STS2: 0.810
STU: 0.827

I think STS2 might be a bit easy and STU is a bit hard (slightly harder than the 0.824 of ESP).

Scott

Please tell me you're kidding, Scott. That STU PAX makes no sense - I expected it to be much closer to STX. How the heck can anyone justify a street tire PAX that's higher than its comparable race tire (ESP) counterpart?

Looks like I'm back to buying R tires. Now if Kumho would quit with the empty promises and release my size . . .

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Most of STU cars are not ESP cars. They're AS, BS, and BSP cars.

Looking at the top cars in the class, I'd say the PAX makes sense. Maybe a little high, but not much.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Here is a link to the official PAX/RTP site:
http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2004.html

As Mike said, you have to keep in mind that the PAX ESTIMATES of performance potential of car classes are based on the fastest cars eligible for the class, autocrossed on Nationals style courses, with absolutely full preparation to the class rules including the best possible tires. Oh, and driven by National Champion level drivers familiar with the cars.

Anything other than that approach would make the index useless as a basis for comparing classes.

Aso, keep in mind that the only "official" SCCA index that I'm aware of are the ones used in Pro Solo which are different from PAX and are determined by Pro Solo Management based on Pro Solo performance potential.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I think the pax is spot on!

I would expect a fully prepped STi to be about 2 seconds faster then my WRX on a 60 second course.

-Tom

I guess the viscous LSD restriction was put in to help the 1.6 Miata keep up with the 1.8's. With no torsens and no M2 Miatas it looks like I won't be bringing Maybelene back out of retirement.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I still disagree. Not that it makes any difference, but here's my point:

Best case scenario for STU is from the perspective of running the hottest SP car allowable w/the best street tires available. The difference in RTP-PAX for the fastest comparable R class (BSP) vs. street tire class (STU) is 0.011 points. In this "best case scenario" (which is actually above and beyond the best case, since the dominant BSP cars, pre-97 Corvettes, are not allowed in STU), the STU time would have to be within 0.8 seconds of the BSP time on a 60 second course. I just can't stretch my imagination far enough to see any street tire standing a chance of coming that close to the best (or even any decent) R compound tire, even more so on the high horsepower cars addressed by STU. And since everyone in STU must run something less capable than the hottest BSP set up (fully prepped Corvette), they all have to run even closer to (or in many cases faster than) their comparable race tire class time.

Contrary to Tom's post, I think the whole argument makes less sense from the perspective of an STi. Consider the following two STi's:

A fully prepped ESP STi on Hoosiers, or
A fully prepped STU STi on the fastest street tire available

Which should be faster? I'd bet my money every time on the Hooser-clad (ESP) STi. Believe it or not, the street tire/STU car would have to run FASTER, if we assume the PAX Index is correct. How does that make any sense?

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

From Jim
If THSCC does recognize these classes, is there a need for a TIR class?

I think TIR classe should remain. How about the stock car running with street tire!!! Bump them to these new classes with nicely prepared car???
Or Bump them in the open classs???

At the moment for the test and tune there is 8 stock TIR registration.
Not to bad for a class probably more than some open classe.

Patrice[/b]

It makes sense if the STi doesn't belong in ESP... But a lot of rules don't make sense to me, so what do I know?

The joys of indices The only racing indices that I'm aware of that "probably" work are the ones NHRA uses. Of course, they have fewer track/course variables and a rather large sample size to get data from.

Maybe we should go to the golf handicapping approach. Handicap the driver based on past performance.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I like that idea a lot.

Or maybe we should ditch all of our PAX classes. I like that idea a lot

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

We could get a step ahead of the SCCA and create three more classes to cover the gaps in the 4 STxx classes, thereby eliminating the need for TIR class:

PLS - for plastic cars on street tires

BON - for (bone) stock cars on street tires (require OE front sway bar). This would be a PAX'ed class, but the only one. As long as we don't call it "TIR", I think we'll be able to sneak it by Jim Pastorious.

RUB - Run what You Brung - any car on street tires that doesn't fit in the first 6 classes.

The golf handicap idea has merit, but only for electric cars.

Art

Hey, I will push my lead balloon as well (and contribute to the hijacking of this thread)...

* Everyone is entered into their correct "open" class (they pick which class if they are eligible for multiple classes). All cars will be marked with open class numbers. No TIR or NOV labels on cars.

* The only exception to the above “open class for everyone” would be the PRO class. It would continue as a separate class, but with indexed results inside of the class. But this could be ditched as an exception to the rule if we wanted.

* Points, trophies, etc. is awarded based upon open class results. Basically the event runs as if there is only the "open" classes that SCCA/THSCC uses.

* There would then be three sets of additional indexed results. Regular/Open, Tire and Novice. If you are running street tires you will be automatically placed in the "TIR" results. Any class that has a PAX based upon street tires would be excluded from this index (as is today). If you call yourself a novice, you are put into the "Novice" results. Everyone else is placed into the "Regular/Open" results. No more single indexed list for everyone.

* We currently give out trophies for TIR and NOV. We can decide if we should continue to do so (I think we should). Maybe even give out trophies for the new "Regular/Open" indexed class (which we don't currently). However I know that in general there seems to be movement toward giving out less trophies.

The selling points is that open class participation will be larger (required), but TIR and NOV results will still be published and maybe even awarded. Side benefit is that the overall Indexed results will be reduced by breaking it into three parts. I personally think it is silly to lump the TIR folks into the overall indexed results as they operate at a disadvantage as they are using street tires when their respective PAX values assume "R" tires. Same deal with Novices. If they improve they will soon win and be bumped out of that set of indexed results, or will voluntarily leave the class on their own.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Have you been at the last several Christmas Parties? Everyone with a pulse gets a trophy.

At the events, we follow the SCCA format for number of trophies... 4 entries = 2 trophies, 7 entries = 3 trophies, 10 entries = 4 trophies... To a maximum of 5 trophies for 13+ entrants.

How many more do you think should be given out? (a real question, not a start to a flame war) Also, consider at what point the trophy becomes meaningless before you give out too many more than we already do.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe