fog lights and ST*

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:44 am

The rules state you can replace the bumper facia in ST* to run after market areo kits. In that light, can you remove the fog lights when you run ST*? I ask because I always tape mine up and on an e36, they're very easy to remove.

opinions?

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I think on a national level there has been some uncertainty about this. Which I think is dumb.

Here's how I read it -- If I can replace the front bumper with a piece of saran wrap legally, then I can run the stock bumper without foglights. Even if someone protested you -- if the club officers upheld a protest, I would kick them in the nuts for being so stupid.

Take 'em off.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 pm

People who think there is a gray area there are being silly. The "bumper cover" is open, period. So a bumper cover with fog lights removed is simply an alternate bumper cover, IMHO. Perfectly legal.

I'm guessing for MANY cars that would run ST there are aftermarket bumper covers out there that would require the removal of the fog lights. It would simply make no sense to allow someone to run one of those and *not* allow someone else to run a factory one with the fog lights removed. I see where the wording could sort of imply that maybe this isn't legit, but a PC with sanity would leave this one alone.

That means you could even drill big gaping holes in your factory bumper cover that just happen to be in a good place for brake venting, air induction, etc.

If you think there should be a wording change to the rule to address this issue, and you are an SCCA member, please write a letter to seb@scca.com requesting a clarification. That's the only way these gray areas get turned to black and white, and this one shouldn't be that hard to fix. Sometimes we intentionally leave slightly gray areas where writing the rule would be too long to be worth it, but in general the intention is definitely to make things as clear as possible.

--Donnie

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

If the rules don't specifically say you can do it, why would you think it's okay? :stick:

j/k

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

So I came across this while looking for something else...

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/288051.aspx

and remembered this thread - looks like you're SOL, Rodney.

BTW, don't expect my car to be 100% "technically" legal at any autox this year. :roll:

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

So who am I supposed to file my protests with again?

:lol:

RobLupella · **Posted:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:04 pm

Rodney, just run them and threaten to beat anyone up who protests you :wink:

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:20 pm

1. We're NOT the SCCA
2. We are a regional club
3. We reserve the right to make and enforce our own rules
4. Anybody who files a protest against a competitor for removed BMW foglights will be swiftly kicked in the nuts, then will be reminded of 1, 2, and 3

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

1. We do use the SCCA rulebook for our rules.
2. This is a self-policing sport.
3. There exists a class for whatever modifications you make to your car. Run in it.
4. If you run your car in a class with illegal modifications made to it, it's your own fault. If someone calls you out on it and you whine about it, you're a loser*.

* This was not my first choice in words.

PS: VP Fight!!!!1!eins! w00t :twisted:

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:16 pm

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

1. We're NOT the SCCA
2. We are a regional club
3. We reserve the right to make and enforce our own rules

I'd just like to point out that even if this *was* an SCCA thing, SCCA regions also have the right to make and enforce their own rules. In fact, most do just that and do much more than the little that TH does. The only significant "rule" that I know of that TH "made" is the TIR class, which most SCCA regions do in some way (and not all the same), too.

Quote:

4. Anybody who files a protest against a competitor for removed BMW foglights will be swiftly kicked in the nuts, then will be reminded of 1, 2, and 3

We've had far more egregious rules violations in the past and I don't believe anyone has been protested at a TH event since I joined six years ago.

--Donnie

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:41 pm

Wes Eargle wrote:

...stuff....
PS: VP Fight!!!!1!eins! w00t :twisted:

Right, but THIS discusson is all about the gray area. And it's in said gray area that WE get to interpret the rules.

Now quit trying to pick a fight

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:51 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

1. We're NOT the SCCA
2. We are a regional club
3. We reserve the right to make and enforce our own rules

I'd just like to point out that even if this *was* an SCCA thing, SCCA regions also have the right to make and enforce their own rules. In fact, most do just that and do much more than the little that TH does. The only significant "rule" that I know of that TH "made" is the TIR class, which most SCCA regions do in some way (and not all the same), too.

Fair enough, I admittedly know little to nothing of the world outside East-Central NC

Quote:

4. Anybody who files a protest against a competitor for removed BMW foglights will be swiftly kicked in the nuts, then will be reminded of 1, 2, and 3

We've had far more egregious rules violations in the past and I don't believe anyone has been protested at a TH event since I joined six years ago.

--Donnie

Yep, as Wes validly pointed out - we rely on the competitors to self police. We have a good history of it, and it's a trend that should continue.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

After reading Andy Hollis' comments on the link that Kevin posted, I now understand that -- while there is an allowance for the bumper cover to be replaced, the implicit rule in that allowance is that *anything* that was attached to the stock bumper must be transferred to the aftermarket blinging bumper cover. So my mythical saran wrap bumper would have to be able to support the brake ducts, foglights, etc that existed stock.

Sucks but that's how the rules work.

Matt Nicholson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:08 am

So, there's not going to ba any nut-kicking???

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

4. Anybody who files a protest against a competitor for removed BMW foglights will be swiftly kicked in the nuts, then will be reminded of 1, 2, and 3

I agree with this sentiment entirely.

However, I am interested to know what illegal modifications Kevin is running. . .

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