THSCC Forums

Paying for class wins would definitely do more for participation than FTS, FTSP, etc. I actually think upping entry fees enough to do that and maybe even pay up to the first three trophy positions for *one* event per year would be worthwhile, assuming you could do it for $20 or $25 more and no more than that. You'd want to make each class have some reasonable minimum level of participation, too, like five or six entries. So in essence you'd pay *every* trophy position up to three based on the formula we use now for trophies anyway.

I honestly think *that* would drive participation at that one big event per year. I'd still have it for Pro as well, and maybe even still up the amounts there to encourage some serious participation there. Even those who felt they had no chance at money would want to be at that event just to *see* it, I think. But maybe that's me being overzealous, I don't know. I got chills watching the final runs in SuperStock at Nationals last year. That was some intense competition.

--Donnie

Donnie why would you think I would want to pay extra to see you or any of the other hot shoes run. I wouldn't and I don't think any of the other folks in the middle of the pack would either. Suggestions like paying cash to the top pro runners is exactly the best way to insure middle and lower level autocrossers are left out. And as a result I guarentee participation would go down. At least as far as I'm concerned it would.

First, this isn't about me. I'm not trying to get payouts done so *I* can win money...I'm no more likely to be able to make it if there's a payday than not. So please don't confuse this with *me* wanting payouts.

That said, it's a fairly proven method to increase competition...giving people more to *win*. It's also been known to encourage spectating...witness the popularity of other forms of motorsports and actually being able to sell TICKETS. The cool part about this sport is that you can not only enjoy watching tight competition, you can actually learn a thing or two by watching the hot shoes drive. But if that's not interesting to you, well, either you're different or I'm just wrong on what people care about. Sure, most of this sport is about doing rather than watching, but once competition gets to a certain level, watching can certainly be exciting. Like my SS example from Nationals last year, or even FS this year at the Toledo Pro (three drivers swapping the lead over each of their last four runs by a tenth or less every time was a really fun tight battle!).

Note, too, that under my revised plan you'd only need to be third in a class of seven or eight (I forget the exact trophy formula) to win money. That's attainable for a good many people in this club, not just "hot shoes."

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and people would rather stay home than pay a bit extra for a bigger event with bigger prizes once a year. As it stands now the NCAC appears to be a slightly larger event with multiple clubs running and for some reason each club can't even get their normal amount of attendees to show up. What other ideas other than bigger prizes will change that? It certainly isn't the structure of the Club Cup, and I don't think it ever would be. So what else can we do?


--Donnie

Donnie, didn't mean to single you out. I only mentioned your name cause your a hot shoe and your posting. I miss read your post and understood that you were in agreement with Les
Cash payouts as follows:
$400 Pro class
$200 Novice class
$200 Ladies class
$200 FTS
$200 FTSP
$200 FTP
$200 FTM
$200 FTST
$200 FTSM
Sorry for that, it was that proposal that my last statemenmt was aimed at.
What you are in fact proposing is an enhanced version of last years Cup rules. But rather than incentive to participate in just the points towards the Cup there would be prizes. Thats a thought that bears merit. Again sorry for not reading your post fully.

That's interesting regarding payouts. Just because there are payouts does not make it a Professional event. It is still Amateurs. I've bowled in Amateur tournaments, in this state, with larger payouts than discussed here. I've cashed out over $600 at an event after entry fees. That is the "documented" prize money. We won't even talk about "Bracket Boards" that are all paid in/out with cash

Our events are races plain and simple. Read your auto insurance policy. It doesn't cover your car for "timed events". Drag racing, autocross, rallycross, time trials. There is no difference. The insurance the club gets for events is based on the idea that we are racing is it not?

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http://www.greywinds.com

I think that we should take the cup, set it on fire and call it a failed experiment.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I got some gas, who's got the match?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Bernie, my first response to Les's post was in agreement, but then I revised my thinking a bit based on Dustin's response and some subsequent thinking. So you weren't that far off, at least based on what I said at one point. Anyway, maybe we are beating a dead horse, but I can't help but have visions of Wes and Ryan wearing one of those two-man horse costumes and me having the big stick.


--Donnie

Well, dibs on being in front so Ryan's head is ...

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Great post Dustin. That's exactly what I had in mind with the "Spirit". I may not have communicated it very well but that was what I was looking for. I've talked to a bunch of people that had the same feelings but a lot of them either aren't on the forum or they don't want to wade into the mess with the naysayers.

The "Cup" idea may indeed suck but I still think it's a noble goal to try and include as many people as possible in the event. A lot of people keep saying the event is all about individual accomplishments and that's fine but why not try to make it about more than that? Nobody is trying to diminish the individual championships, that's for sure.

Tarheel seems to try and embody the spirit of working together and being a "team" so why not try and use that as a motivation tool? I'm pretty sure the other clubs feel the same way about themselves so why not try and use that as well?

We've already had some good ideas generated in this discussion so let's try and keep it positive. If nobody cares about the NCAC, so be it. Judging by the responses so far, that just doesn't seem to be the case.

Jim

I had a much different initial response when I read Wes' post.

It went something like this:



I talked to your Mom the other day and she said the same thing about you!

But I'm not going to post that 'cause that wouldn't be constructive.

Seriously Wes, you seem like a smart guy. At least some of the time. Do you have any ideas on increasing participation? Or are you just here to grace us with your usual "Eargle'isms"?

You do a great job with the Jimmy V each year. Why not direct some of that creativity towards the NCAC?

Jim

It seems to me that alot of the THSCC involvement in NCAC stems from a few, (often) senior top level drivers talking about the fun and benefits of competing in the NCAC. I know that in my own case, the point at which I started driving in the NCAC, at other club's events, and occasionally at a Divisional event was after having heard other talk about how much it would improve my driving. Positive comments about the fun, challenges, and potential improvement of stepping up to "bigger events" even if I didn't think I was ready for them made the difference. I can thank drivers like Eric, Jim P, Jim F, Miles, Scott and others for giving me a "push" that I'm very glad I took (at least to some level). I think that to some extent participation at the recent NCAC events somewhat mirrors what senior club members say and do. THSCC and Triad seem to have several senior drivers that believe in testing yourself in other venues - other members follow that lead. I see less of this attitude with HSCC.

Also the fact that we are used to driving two hours to local events makes us a little more willing than some clubs to travel to more distant events.

That is a very key point. Sorry, 99.99% of the autocrossers in NC do not share the same mindset of Jim F, Donnie or myself (when I was doing it). To those people taking an entire weekend and the cost associated with it is not really worth it. They look forward to the one event per month when they can get up early Sunday and make a day of it.

Add to the fact, THSCC has their own two-day event and another entire weekend dedicated to AX is not in their realm of wants.

So be content having 120 drivers come out. Focus on putting a decent event on. Have all the clubs share in running the event. Nothing wrong with the big clubs helping out the smaller clubs.

And add to the fact, you will not get the casual participant out to spend food, lodging, entry fees (god forbid increasing the entry fee) and gas when they are only going to get 3 runs per day. So your goal of increasing participation forces you to chase your tail.

As far as money goes, ask those of us who ran for money with NASA a number of years ago. You got all the hot shoes coming from the east coast. It was a big deal to us. But to the other 100 participants there, they could of cared less.

That is the nature of autocross.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I believe that the Cup is a failed experiment. But the thing is, politically, we can't pull out now, we're committed for at least the four year cycle. The reason for that is that CCR, the guys that have placed second for the past two years, host it next year and will likely bring in their best and brightest for the event. I don't need to put on my Karnak hat and put an envelope in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnall's back porch to foresee what will happen when (not if) there is additional tweaking of the club cup rules.

Is this productive? I don't think so. Let the officers in charge do what they feel is the best for the club, and let them know what you feel *in advance* of any such rules discussion, and then just suck it up and drive.

Now onto a broader topic of participation, how many do you think is necessary for an event to be considered a success? 150+ to drive "out of state" for a two day event is a success, weather nonwithstanding. Did several drivers opt out for various reasons? Sure. Jeremy Cox and Jeff Joyce weren't there in CSP, the latter for shot wheel bearings. GH and Per weren't in GS for their reasons. Every other class has similar no-shows as well.

In addition, how many people opted *out* of the event for the reason that they knew that they weren't going to be in contention for an award? A couple of years ago, that was my reason for not driving to Greenville -- why bother spending the coin and driving that far just to get my ass whipped? Didn't seem reasonable to me, and you know how many events that I go to each year.

As far as the V Foundation event, I do it because I'm emotionally vested in it and have been lucky to co-chair the events with people that do the business. I don't have such an investment with the NCAC; I'm just another guy typing on a keyboard who trusts his elected officers (Thanks, Stephen).

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

i could be completely wrong, but if you all were to schedule this thang with more than 5 weeks notice you might get a better turnout. but hey i am not an autoX'er.