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I pretty much agree with your Devils Advocate comments.

I don't think you are saying this at all, but I don't think the concept of this being a warm up for Nationals being should be some type of sacred cow. All I am saying is that all decisions should be geared toward making NCAC the best it can be. Trying to do too much (such as making it a warm up event for Nationals) may or may not work. If it doesn’t then don’t do it. The hard part is figuring out the balance. Figure out who the NCAC serving and what it would take to make them happy (with reasonable effort) and the rest should work itself out. (I make it sound so easy!! )

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I think we both agree.

I look at the "potential good warm up for Nationals" as a consequence of the current scheduling, not as an initial stated goal.

I think we all can agree that it is all about the competition. Whether it's about individual competition or some sort of semi-manufactured team competition is another matter altogether.

If we really want the best competition possible, there needs to be some thought given to getting the "best" in the state there on a consistent basis. If that's not a goal, it does make scheduling easier but my guess is that the "fence sitters" aren't going to make the event a priority no matter when we schedule it. That leaves the competitors in the middle so to speak and it seems they will make their best effort to show up no matter when it is held.

Again, I may be totally off-base but at least I have an opinion and I'm willing to share.

On that note, I'm off to an actual event...

Jim

The one thing mentioned before that will get more of the top drivers to show up (and even likely result in out of state drivers showing up) is prizes. That's what works time and time again. Generally doesn't matter to *me* for an event like this one, but it matters to a lot of people. Even if you can't get sponsors, up the entry fee a few bucks and pay money to the top spots. *shrug*


--Donnie

That would be sweet! Maybe we could eventually get Tire Rack to toss in some gift cards for 1st, 2nd & 3rd to the tune of $100, $50, and $25 or something along those lines?

I've been mulling over just such an idea recently. Main problems I see is we can't bump up the entry fee too much as that will discourage participation since many people won't actually be competing for cash, and therefor will just be annoyed by the higher entry price. The cash prizes need to be substantial but not too substantial as to attract "ringers" from far outside the state. With these things in mind I came up with a structure like this:

Modest $10 extra from each participant which hopefully combined with a little sponsorship money make a $2000 total prize pool.

Cash payouts as follows:
$400 Pro class
$200 Novice class
$200 Ladies class
$200 FTS
$200 FTSP
$200 FTP
$200 FTM
$200 FTST
$200 FTSM

All are based on indexed time rather than raw, I'm not a huge fan of pax, but it has its merits in this situation and since in most cases your only paxed with cars in the same mod tier much of the things that suck about pax are diminished. Pro gets double payout to both encourage some "not so local" pros to come out at the same time encouraging them to take themselves out of the individual classes where they could effect state championships.

Further refinements are needed to get around cherry picking and lower subscription in some of the categories. But we can use a system maybe where to qualify for cash prize, you must be able to show at least 3-4 local events where you ran in that class. On the subscription issue maybe we could "pro-rate", stock category has 50 competitors and prepared only 10 so stock gets a prize of $333 and prepared only gets $67.

Paying cash didnt seem to help the "Speedfed Nationals"

They had 56 drivers

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Why is there a pro class at the NCAC?

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In need of car.

I like Les' plan up to trying to account for cherry picking...I'm just not sure there's enough reason to add that complexity. I do like the double payout for pro, though. I sorta feel like there's no reason for pro *unless* you do this payout, but if you do I like it. That in itself will discourage the cherry picking. I'd add that there can't be multiple award winners...you tier them somehow and then you only get your "highest" payout. That way if the pro winner is also top pax, that person only gets pro money and second pax gets the pax money.


--Donnie

It's a really nice day outside today folks. Step away from your keyboards.

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Silver Honda
Green Ford
Blue/White Suzuki
Red Triumph
Grey BMW

"Never let life be shaped by fear of its end"

No, you're a towel!

I was actually in the car on the way home from lunch when I posted that last message. Now I'm inside while the three year old takes a nap before we head out for his birthday party at Pump It Up. I don't know what kind of good excuse these other morons have for not being outside.


--Donnie

I'm working at my swing set store until 5:00. I swear the pretty weather brings folk$ out.

I'll be outside in the backyard drinking beer and playing cornhole (if you don't know, don't ask ) with the my wife & friends when I get the hell outta here!

that's my excuse...

Regarding payouts...

Someone feel free to call our insurance company and tax lawyer to discuss the ramnifications of us running a PROFESSIONAL event rather than an amature one.

We've talked about payouts before, and every time we've opted to avoid them due to potential downside. A payout makes our events races plain and simple. The grey area that we occupy in the race word is no longer grey if we have cash prizes.

Scott

Prosolo pays money and I'm fairly certain is still considered a timed driving event or whatever. *shrug*


--Donnie

Nothing beats drunken bean bag tossing!!! It usually ends up with us throwing the bags at each other sooner or later!!

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza

I'm not sure awarding cash to Top PRO and FT* encourages more participation. In general, the people that would take those awards are already in the top 10's for their club and are already contributing to the "greater good"/"club cup". These are probably also the people that will come regardless - or at the least are a very select group.

I think that, overall, this whole "Club Cup" discussion is more about enticing the top 25% (maybe even 50%) in their club rankings to come out and play. These people aren't expecting class wins or trophies in this venue (though they certainly are there to try) - but being able to say/think "at least I helped win that for the club" DOES give some motivation. Personally, I felt I had a chance this year to contribute in the top 10 format, and I did what I could to do my best. But I also had 2 codrivers with very different motivations - and from their perspective last year's format (or at least something along those lines) would have been welcomed.

To those that keep saying autocross is about class wins - I'll agree with you, and this is especially rewarding when there's good, firece competition in a class. BUT, also realize that class wins of lightly subscribed classes may not exactly be rewarding (most of the ladies classes, for example), and at least a good portion of the drivers are simply out of the discussion based on their lack of vehicle prep.

My point is that I think we need a system that balances both participation and top driving if the goal really is to grow the NCAC as a venue for the clubs IN NC. I don't think we need methods to make NCAC more attractive to the frequent top-10ers - I think we need to make NCAC more attractive to the rest of the field.

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --