Technique advice - anyone want to co-drive my car?

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

As much fun as I had at Sanford, I see I've still got seconds to make up on the faster STS drivers, and I can't blame crappy street tires.

One part of the course where I had alot of fun was the sweepers - the way my car is setup now (neutral toe rear, slight toe-out front, and I think natural tendencies of the SVT), I can get the car to rotate with a little tap on the brakes after turning in. I attacked the sweepers with full throttle bursts, turn/tap to rotate the car and then full throttle out.
Fun as hell, but I have no clue if I was gaining or losing time just throwing the car around.

Any other FWD drivers out there have advice on the best approach to that part of the course?

Not sure if I have a schedule conflict, but if I can make the 6/10 event any more experienced drivers interested in co-driving my car so I can see the right way to drive it? I *may* have Azenis that weekend, or you may get to help me finally kill these Ziex's

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 6:45 am

Paging Vincent Keene.

What tire pressures are you running?

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 8:18 am

Sure I'd like to drive it! Can you make it to VIR this weekend?

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

David Spratte wrote:

Paging Vincent Keene.

What tire pressures are you running?

10 over stock w/the Falken Ziex's - 42F/39R. I've been checking the treadwear at each AX and it's been pretty good - only adjusted the fronts once (at VMP) when the pressures were getting a little high after the run, and raised the fronts a little at Wilmington when I was getting a little too much roll onto the sidewalls.

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

Vincent Keene wrote:

Sure I'd like to drive it! Can you make it to VIR this weekend?

Track day? I'm working *really* hard to resist that temptation and stick with the AX's for now.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 8:26 am

I don't think your approach is that far off the mark for a FWD car. If you find that you get enough rotation that you counter steer to stop it then you've gone too far. Rotation that allows opening the steering and throttle application is great.

Next time, try to just lift rather than hit the brakes

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 8:52 am

scottjohnson wrote:

Next time, try to just lift rather than hit the brakes

That's what I was thinking.

I was running 5 psi more in the rear to help the MCS rotate on the stock shocks. I felt like I had to hack it a bit to get the car to rotate (what VK always gives me grief about). In hindsight I think with the OEM suspension I did have to chiuck it around a bit, but was over doing it.

Of course, your STS suspension mods might mean you don't need that sort of front to back bias.

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

David Spratte wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

Next time, try to just lift rather than hit the brakes

That's what I was thinking.

I was running 5 psi more in the rear to help the MCS rotate on the stock shocks. I felt like I had to hack it a bit to get the car to rotate (what VK always gives me grief about). In hindsight I think with the OEM suspension I did have to chiuck it around a bit, but was over doing it.

Of course, your STS suspension mods might mean you don't need that sort of front to back bias.

Just Eibach pro-kit springs/swaybars, stock SVT dampers. I've read about some other SVT guys raising the rear pressure to help rotation as well. I'm thinking about camber plates, but may just concentrate on my driving this year and save up for plates, dampers, and maybe even a full coilover setup for next year.

Do you typically start with +10psi as a baseline with Azenis?

Thanks for the advice!

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 9:19 am

Must... resist... temptation... to... autocross... this... year...

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Richard Casto wrote:

Must... resist... temptation... to... autocross... this... year...

I think you should take the Odyssey out there. HS?

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 9:36 am

KendtEklund wrote:

David Spratte wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

Next time, try to just lift rather than hit the brakes

That's what I was thinking.

I was running 5 psi more in the rear to help the MCS rotate on the stock shocks. I felt like I had to hack it a bit to get the car to rotate (what VK always gives me grief about). In hindsight I think with the OEM suspension I did have to chiuck it around a bit, but was over doing it.

Of course, your STS suspension mods might mean you don't need that sort of front to back bias.

Just Eibach pro-kit springs/swaybars, stock SVT dampers. I've read about some other SVT guys raising the rear pressure to help rotation as well. I'm thinking about camber plates, but may just concentrate on my driving this year and save up for plates, dampers, and maybe even a full coilover setup for next year.

Do you typically start with +10psi as a baseline with Azenis?

Thanks for the advice!

Nah. Wait. Hold that thought: I've only run them once at an auto-x and that was actually the Evo school.

Not sure what you run at the street, but I was in the 37# range. The Azenis have pretty beefy sidewall.

Same pressures I ran at VIR-N.

JamesFeinberg · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 10:27 am

I've found the Azenis work best for me in the ~34psi range front and rear. Depending on the grip level of the surface, I might go up or down a couple of pounds but that's about it. I've also found that they really don't like anything less than 32psi in the front otherwise they start rolling over a bit too much.

Given that your car weighs a lot more than mine, I'd be inclined to start in the 38psi range and adjust from there. I like to lower pressures in the rear if I'm looking for more rotation as it gives a more progressive breakaway but that's more of a driver preference.

I've run as little as 20psi in the rear and it worked reasonably well when the rear swaybar was busted. The car didn't put power down worth a darn but that had nothing to do with tire pressures.

Jim

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 10:31 am

JamesFeinberg wrote:

I've found the Azenis work best for me in the ~34psi range front and rear. Depending on the grip level of the surface, I might go up or down a couple of pounds but that's about it. I've also found that they really don't like anything less than 32psi in the front otherwise they start rolling over a bit too much.

Jim

Do they visibly roll over, or do they just lose grip and skate? In the Relica I was as low as 25 psi in front and 18 psi in the rear and I never saw any signs of rollover. I did feel like the rear stopped gripping as well when I went from 20 down to 18.

Of course, I'm running a 195/60-14 (Azenis 215) on a 7" wide wheel.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Don't get too far into the technical car setup discussion and forget that he's talking about SECONDS here. All seasons vs. Azenis is about 2 seconds per 60 seconds. If you're on decent summer tires and you're farther away than that (I don't know, didn't look up the results), you need to focus (heh) on how to drive the course effectively, not on how to "fix the car." You'll get a lot closer with driving than by changing the car.

JamesFeinberg · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 11:13 am

scottjohnson wrote:

Do they visibly roll over, or do they just lose grip and skate? In the Relica I was as low as 25 psi in front and 18 psi in the rear and I never saw any signs of rollover. I did feel like the rear stopped gripping as well when I went from 20 down to 18.

Of course, I'm running a 195/60-14 (Azenis 215) on a 7" wide wheel.

Both. I can definitely tell a difference in feel and front grip as the car will feel very sloppy and won't turn in very well. By accident, I ran ~26psi cold in Greensboro a few weeks ago and it was horrible. Not only did the car feel terrible but the datalogger showed the grip went down appreciably.

Out in Walnut Ridge, I did some runs on the practice course ~32psi and I noticed the outside edges of the tires were getting chewed up. The surface there is really strange but it had just enough grip that I had to up my pressures to ~36psi which is getting close to my Laurinburg settings.

It doesn't surprise me that you were able to run the 215's that low. They definitely have a stiffer sidewall construction and you've got them pretty stretched out on a 7" wheel. I'm running the 205-50's on a 7" wheel so they aren't quite as stretched out. I used to run my 215's ~28psi in Sanford as a reference.

Jim

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