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 Post subject: Greenville Course Data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:22 am 
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Just call me Bo

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Location: SYPHAJFD
GPS Course map:

Image

Total distance: 0.46 miles (0.742 km)

Stats from my best run (41.294 + 1):

Top Speed: 57.5 mph (53.6 mph)
Average Speed: 39.6 mph (37.8 mph)

Max lateral g’s: 1.06 g’s turning right, 1.15 g’s turning left (1.16 g’s, 1.15 g’s)
Max longitudinal g’s: 0.53 g’s accelerating, 0.891 g’s braking (0.51 g’s, 0.659 g’s)

Comparing the data with what I collected at Laurinburg (in parentheses) earlier in the year is a little surprising. Even though the Greenville course was on a postage stamp, it was still 2 mph faster on average than Laurinburg with a 4 mph higher top speed. I think that underscores the great course that Walter and Mike put together and it will be interesting to see what trends unfold throughout the season.

The next bit of data is the big surprise-- would anybody believe me if I said that Greenville on that day was just as grippy as Laurinburg earlier in the year? Me either. However, according to the data, the peak g’s obtained at Greenville matched what I saw at Laurinburg. I didn’t quite hit the same peak turning right but the Greenville course didn’t really feature a hard right turn that wasn’t part of a fast transition. The peaks turning left certainly matched up and if I have time to show later, the steady-state values were nearly the same as well.

The maximum g’s while accelerating is fairly meaningless as all it shows is that the car could accelerate the same in 1st gear on both surfaces. Not a big deal when your car is in the 100hp range. On the other hand, look at the peak values while under braking! Apparently I was able to stop *much* better in Greenville than I could in Laurinburg! Say what? What is going on? Is the vaunted “Laurinburg Grip” just a myth? This may require muscle relaxers…

I am leaving out one rather important detail but it doesn't fully explain what may have happened. As usual, since I'm such a tease, I'll let you think about it for a while.

Incidentally, there was some recent chatter on sccaforums.com about how many g’s various auto-x class vehicles pull under certain circumstances. One of the posts mentioned that the top SM/SM2 cars are seeing in the neighborhood of 0.8 g’s under acceleration. In other words, they are accelerating at about the same rate as the maximum braking capability of my car. Bastards! :shock: It’s one thing for a tiny mod car to do that but making a production-based car do that is impressive!

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:35 am 
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Did Jim get new tires or change the suspension setup?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:19 am 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Did Jim get new tires or change the suspension setup?


clutch slip?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:26 am 
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You're just jealous

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GEEZ data for my best run: (partial since I have not had time to clean up the map, etc.)

Peak left g's : 1.81. Sustained (0.5 second duration) 1.41

Right g's were substantially lower due to "caution and steering angle in the pivot". 1.36 peak, 1.14 sustained.

Peak accel at start 0.9 g's. Typical on course second gear full throttle accel just under 0.5 g's.

Peak breaking g's 1.32 (1.1 sustained) in to the far end. I hit the rev limiter (68 mph) at the far end on most first laps and got close on second laps. My recording tach wasn't operating (operator error I hope) so I don't know what the revs were on the other quick sections but my estimate is lots of time in the 50 -60 mph range and "ends of straights" pushing 65. Note there were numerous straights for my car (only 115 flywheel hp).

Note that there is definately an "apples to oranges" issue when comparing g's values from totally different types of instruments so take these numbers as general indicators of the difference between a real car on good street tires and an actual race car on slicks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:47 am 
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Different car? :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:25 am 
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You're just jealous

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Kevin Allen wrote:
Different car? :lol:


I would say that both the cars and the drivers are both "different" . . . right Jim? Not much conventional or average about either of us or our cars. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:39 am 
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Bryan and I will have a DL-1 in the car for the next event, so we can swap data and compare ;) - AB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:37 pm 
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Just call me Bo

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Just to add a little more fuel to the fire, here are the stats from my last and best run from Triad’s first event in Greensboro a few weeks ago. That event was the weekend after the Laurinburg event and I didn’t touch my car at all between them.

Triad’s Greensboro Event #1 Quick Stats from Run #4:

Total distance: 0.37 miles (0.594 km)

Top Speed: 45.6 mph
Average Speed: 19.5 mph

Max lateral g’s: 1.03 g’s turning right, 1.09 g’s turning left
Max longitudinal g’s: 0.52 g’s accelerating, 0.699 g’s braking

Anybody who was there that day could tell you the lot was *very* slick. And cold. And did I mention slick? It was about as far from the conditions in Laurinburg as I can image in a week’s time in the same state without major precipitation.

Regardless of the conditions, look at that average speed on course! That was mostly due to the exceedingly painful Chicago box at the start and the goofy pivot turn as the rest of the course was reasonably open. I don’t think anybody was overly thrilled with the first part of that course.

OK, the lot was slick and the tires were ice cold and yet the little CRX *still* managed to pull similar g-values as in Laurinburg. While I didn’t see quite the braking power I saw in Greenville, it was still better in Greensboro than in Laurinburg! Huh? Is that really possible? I already mentioned that I didn’t touch the car between weekends so surely something must be amiss? Or is it?

There were several Tarheel’ers that attended both events-- what did you guys and gals think? Surely I can’t convince you that there was as much grip in Laurinburg as there was in Greensboro, can I?

As always, the answers lie somewhere in the details…

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:39 pm 
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You used your brakes in L'burg? :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:16 pm 
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I err on the side of being stupid
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JamesFeinberg wrote:

There were several Tarheel’ers that attended both events-- what did you guys and gals think? Surely I can’t convince you that there was as much grip in Laurinburg as there was in Greensboro, can I?

Jim


I didnt have my MaxQ logging at Greenville.

A- The MaxQ itself was dead :(
B- I found the charger in one of moving boxes last night :)


Once it gets scuffed in, Greenville is not that bad for grip.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:26 pm 
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I cast my vote with David's somewhat joking comment.
Quote:
You used your brakes in L'burg?


Is it because Laurinburg didn't have a long sustained braking section, unlike Greenville? (I can't speak for the Greensboro course).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:39 pm 
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Just call me Bo

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Ryan Holton wrote:
Once it gets scuffed in, Greenville is not that bad for grip.


I found that there wasn't a noticeable difference in the grip level at Greenville between heats for my car. I could see things changing if it got really cold or really hot but I think it was fairly consistent during our last event there. That may not be the case for the R-compound crowd however.

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:44 pm 
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Just call me Bo

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Rick Butters wrote:
Is it because Laurinburg didn't have a long sustained braking section, unlike Greenville? (I can't speak for the Greensboro course).


There was one huge braking section in Laurinburg entering the slalom on the taxiway that should have generated as many g's as I could muster. There were definitely a couple of others that were equally as hard but just not as long.

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:11 pm 
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I was astounded at the grip level in Greenville. Everyone commented how bad it is prior to the event, but honestly, it was great. - AB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:51 pm 
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Just call me Bo

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So what is going on? Like much of life, it’s all about balance. Ever since I put the new motor in the car late last year, it has been extremely loose. Obviously the motor didn’t have anything to do with the sudden change in balance but I have a feeling that the nearly 4 months that the car sat on jack stands might have finally killed the large rear trailing arm bushings. I’m sure it didn’t help that they had ~260k miles on them. Even though I didn’t touch the suspension the entire time it was out of commission, I could barely drive the car at the first event with the new motor. I like a loose car as much as the next guy but something was clearly wrong.

After examining the rear closely, I noticed that one of the trailing arm bushings was nearly completely torn through on the bottom side and the remaining rubber was cracked in several places. Considering I had new bushings sitting on my shelf for the past 2 years, the obvious thing would be to replace them, right? Hah, you obviously don’t know me very well!!! Considering it was late in November and I didn’t have a garage, I decided to swap some softer rear springs in the car I had lying around. Changing the rear trailing arm bushing is non-trivial unless you have “the special tool” and, at the time, I didn’t have it. So I swapped my 500lb rear springs for some 300lb springs and signed up for an Evo school! Weeeeeeee! :lol:

While the 300lb springs helped, it was clear that the car was still way too loose. My instructor and I laughed about it during the day as we both wrestled with the car nearly spinning every time we turned the wheel. So did I run home and fix it after that? Nope. Hey, loose is fast, right? :roll:

After the Dixie Tour of this year, it was clear I needed to fix the bushings instead of continuing to put a bandaid over the symptoms. Right before the Laurinburg event I managed to score a used “special tool” on EBay and I replaced my bushings. I figured since the rear end wasn’t flopping around anymore, I should probably put the 500lb rear springs back in the car.

It turns out that combination worked pretty well at Laurinburg. The car was still loose but it was definitely manageable and rotated very well everywhere. I honestly thought it could stand to be a bit looser but I was having trouble seeing the course that day so I didn’t try to make any adjustments. Considering I was at the “tight” end of the adjustments in the car and Laurinburg is allegedly uber-grippy, I probably should have known Greensboro might be a tad tricky the following week.

Boy was I in for a big surprise! The car was looser in Greensboro than it has *ever* been! :shock: What’s up with that? In general, when you move a car from a grippy surface to a not so grippy surface, it tends to accentuate whatever issue the car already has. If the car is loose on a grippy surface, you better watch out when the grip goes away! Combine that with very cold tires and the car was flat-out evil.

OK, we have no grip and the car is evil. It really sounds like there is no way we should have ever seen any peak g’s even close to the previous week but the data doesn’t lie, right? It’s kind of like looking at the results of an event and trying to draw meaningful conclusions. Unless you know the conditions and what was happening with each car and competitor, you’re just shooting in the dark. Like much of life, it’s all about context. Um, and balance.

If you look at the data from my previous runs that day, you’ll see that I didn’t really didn’t generate peak g’s close to what was seen in Laurinburg very often at all. There were a couple of spots but that was mostly a result of getting super loose and thus can be considered just spikes in the data. I broke a motor mount on my 3rd run and had to abort it but I decided to run my 4th anyway. Would you expect anything different at this point? :wink:

By the time I got to my 4th run, I was aggravated by the balance issue as well as the motor mount and I decided I was going to go for it and spin in every turn. I can honestly say that outside of a RallyX event, I have never been more sideways longer than I was on that run. There is no way in hell I could ever reproduce it consistently so, in a sense, the data is worthless. Considering the drivability issues, it makes the setup worthless as well.

The accelerometers can’t tell when the car is sliding and if you look at the data closely, you’ll see that the car really couldn’t brake very well in Greensboro at all. In the places where I was actually able to brake in a straight line, I was never able to pull more than ~0.5 g’s. Yep, the grip wasn’t all that great. Where did the other peak braking numbers come from? It turns out that was generated as I was completely sideways trying to slow down for the last turn. It’s clear that the car can’t do that in a straight line and it took a combination of sliding sideways and a *ton* of steering lock to generate those numbers. In contrast, the peak braking numbers from Laurinburg were generated in a straight line.

The lateral acceleration peak numbers are actually genuine and were achieved at many points on the course. They were on the average about 0.1 g lower than Laurinburg which is significant and does point to a lower overall grip level. The peaks are only seen at initial turn in and given how loose the car was, I was able to somewhat take advantage of that through the transitions. The steady state numbers were a good 0.2 g’s lower than in Laurinburg.

I think there is an important lesson in there. The street tires were capable of generating excellent g numbers for a *very* short time even when they were ice-cold and the chassis was completely out of balance. If you can take advantage of that high transitional grip and not let the tires reach steady state, you can get around a course surprisingly quick. Doing it consistently is nearly impossible, however.

So what happened in Greenville? Was I completely sideways all over the place skewing the data? Nope. I did make 2 big changes to the car so we’ll try to see if we can spot the effects.

Jim


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