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I know you're joking, but you read that a little wrong. I wasn't saying your car wasn't well prepped, just that to be *faster* than in your car you'd need a car on more than *just* stickies. Ie. you'd need to be in a ZOK Solstice or at least the Peterson Miata. Part of the point there was that your car *is* well prepped, even in its, err, current state. *cough*



I'd like to think it would have at least beaten you raw, even with a hack like me driving.


--Donnie

If they had been 2 ft wider they would have been 15 ft wide!!! They were 12 1/2 to 13 ft wide. That may not be a big deal in a Miata or Civic, but it is in a Camaro. I thought the rule book that we follow says all gates should be a minimum of 15 ft wide. Some of the cones after the finish and after the 90 degree left turn were 12 ft apart too.
I mentioned this and was told, "We don't always follow the SCCA Rule Book". The lane changes on the runway at the last event at Laurinburg last year were 12 ft apart too. I was told, "You are probably right, but we've already marked the cones." Both guys are nice guys that I really respect. Both are very good drivers too. But, what am I supposed to think when my concerns are blown off?

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Rubbin' is Racin'

I have already addressed this elsewhere, it should not happen again.

I drive a tiny car and hate narrow gates just as much as anyone else.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I'll comment on this since I was present for this conversation. We aren't an SCCA sanctioned club, but we do try to follow their rules. When Walter brought this to my attention, we had just finished the drivers meeting and were about 5-10 minutes away from first car off. Not knocking Walter, but at that point, it's kind of late to be changing things. At 9AM after your first course walk....I can do something. I am guilty of blowing off your comment and I apologize. However, I wasn't the one that made the comment "We don't always follow the SCCA Rule Book" nor was that person an officer so take that with a grain of salt.


That being said, the VP's will discuss that so that we can be more conscious of it at future events this year.

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Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

That nobody loves you

Naw, I knew exactly what you were saying. I was just having a little fun.

And I happen to agree 100% with what you said.

Well, except the part about my car being a steaming pile...

Jim

Now that's funny! Everybody hates me because my car sounds better than all the others. I'm glad we can keep our sense of humor when we are disagreeing.

I knew last year and this year it was too late to change the course. My points are: it shouldn't happen and why am I the only one to notice/care?

Stephen, I don't think you could offend anyone if you tried. You are the most diplomatic person in the club. Everybody, except Judy, thinks you are easy to get along with!! You are a great VP.

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Rubbin' is Racin'

I never said steaming pile. I would have said "smoking pile."


--Donnie

Ditto x1000

Plus, Honduh drivers > all else

+1

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I don't know what you guys are talking about, I think Steve's a lousy VP and a major A-hole, not to mention lazzy. I can't believe I'm gonna have to work with him all year. This is gonna really suck.

With as many people in this club that dedicate the time and effort that they do, it's kind of hard to do a bad job. I think I was talking to Dustin at some point late last weekend and he commented about how different things were Sunday (vs. Saturday at the school) with the whole club there and how everything "just happens". I only wish my real job was that easy. Now if only I could get paid to do this.....

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Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

You're not the only one Walter. Many of the club members are not active on this forum. Out of that only a small percent that login to this forum speak up for fear of being bashed for stating their opinion.

While I wasn't at this past event it is not the only one with gates that are less than 15ft. Event chairs pace off gates and there is some +/- in their 15ft. It maybe as simple as that. There are also many instances where offsets are so tight and sweep so far that a larger/heavier car can't maintain itself as well as the smaller/lighter car. We seem to get the Miata course or the Corvette course (I say this tongue in cheek). There are a few people in the club that can make a well balanced course that favors pure driving skill. The rest of us make what we think is a good idea then get bashed Monday morning for something we did. Since Event Chairs are volunteers I guess it's fair to say you got what you paid for. And I do not mean that in an insulting way. It would take quite some time for someone to get good enough to make that perfect course that favors no car.

Look at the types of cars that are prevalent also. A large majority of the cars are smaller and lighter. 15ft is not a problem for them. So why would they complain? I honestly think I should get a CRX or something similar and it would be more fun. Running a Z06 on a typical course to me is just not fun (regardless of my lack of AX skill). Sure, Adam and now Les do well with them. I don't and spending my 5 minutes for the day in 2nd spinning my tires through the course is just a waste of a day.

The KA course last fall for the fun event seems to be considered too fast, too easy, and not good for a points event. But look at the outcome. The top cars are scattered across the board. Even though it was labeled a horsepower course. Besides the fact that I like to go fast or faster. The course was open and flowed well in my mind. It was fun. Heaven forbid you have a fun course at a points event. If Rob wouldn't blow a gasket, or the AX VPs wouldn't pitch me under the bus, I'd setup pretty much the same course this September.

Walter, Go take that Camaro and run VIR (Full or North course). You'll have a blast. You might even come back to AX and appreciate it more or you may hate it. But you'll get a different perspective. After doing track for a year I actually enjoyed the KA course even if it isn't considered right.

This is purely my personal opinion aimed at no one in particular.

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http://www.greywinds.com

Even I wouldn't use that course at a regular event. Only reason I set it up that way was because it was a FUN event as a REWARD for members who knew what they were doing (well, supposedly ). And I had heard enough complaining from people with big cars that it was obvious they needed something to smile about. (and because my STi begged me to do it)

But yeah, I fully understand about the crappy little tight courses that we sometimes have. Those are a big reason why I don't care that much about autoxing anymore - you never know what you're going to get before you actually arrive and drive. I just want to go have fun with my car at this point, and that means a certain thing to me. Yes, I like challenging/technical stuff, but if you have a few of those elements mixed in with a bunch of really tight, crappy elements...

Maybe we should have a course design school so prospective event chairs can get some seat time on different styles of courses so they can understand the differences (if they're capable of that) between challenging and just plain crappy, and flowing vs. choppy. Should be pretty easy to set this up - and yes, I'm volunteering for the job, if nobody else wants to do it.

I agree with Graham for the most part, but the better drivers should always rise to the top. A tight, more challenging course is going to show that driver difference more than a wide open 'easy' course.

The best courses have 3-4 elements that will challenge you (whether you recognize them or not is another story ), yet it should still flow well and seem to have 'stream of consciousness'.

Poor course design is not limited to our club or the local level. I'm sure others can chime in about the 2004 ProSolo in Oscoda. There were 25 people (myself included) that put up a protest bond to 'Protest the Course'. Some minor rule changes came about in regards to course design in the 2005 rulebook.

I think Kevin's idea has a lot of merit. I'd help out with it too. I think the best courses are created the day of the event, by throwing out cones and letting things happen. Planning courses rarely comes out the way one would think. - AB

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