⚠ Forum Archived — The THSCC forums were discontinued (last post: 2024-05-18). This read-only archive preserves club history. Visit thscc.com →  |  Search this archive with Google: site:forums.thscc.com your search terms

THSCC Forums

Tarheel Sports Car Club Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2026 10:11 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:05 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
David Spratte wrote:
Dibs on fun runs! :P


After I receive *certified* funds for a relatively hefty deposit, we can talk. :lol:


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:14 pm 
Offline
JACKASS!!!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am
Posts: 3683
As soon as my Nigerian email contact comes through, the check's in the mail!

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:45 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Donnie Barnes wrote:
Jim, Steve Wynveen has poured a bunch of his own data together and concluded that his S2000 definitely turns better one way than the other and it was some small but relatively signficant amount. Enough that you could *see* the required bias when watching video of someone turning a wheel? I would have to agree that seems unlikely.


That is interesting. It's hard for me to describe what I saw other than the car just looked to have a different rhythm turning left -vs- right in the slalom. The cool part is that it was consistent all the way through the slalom and obviously very fast as witnessed by Eric's smoking times.

After looking at the data I collected from the Greenville event earlier in the year, I noticed there was one spot that I was consistently slow and wondered what was going on there. It was the fairly tight 3-cone offset slalom just before the finish which required a huge steering input to get the car back to the left and through the finish gate. I consistently pulled ~.3 g's less through there compared to the rest of the course and had no idea why. I did the same thing on every run so I guess there is something to be said for consistency.

Anyway, after looking at the video it's very clear that I just wasn't moving the steering wheel fast enough through that section. I was able to make the initial quick turn-in to the right but I was being very lazy on the big steering input back to the left. Why? LHB, of course! I took the CRX out and started "slaloming" around at different speeds and noticed that at some point, my steering inputs to the left had a hard time matching my inputs to the right.

David Spratte wrote:
2. I've always had it in my head that you should mostly pull the wheel when making steering inputs. (Not like that VK. Very Happy) Instead of pushing. Something about better muscle control on a pull than a push. Both hands are involved, but the leading hand is doing more of the work? I'd be curious to see if a lefty exhibited the reverse regularly.


I've heard that too and if you watch a bunch of the smaller NASCAR guys, they definitely do that. Mark Martin being the classic example. I think this is where our sport differs from others in that with the possible exception of the "dirt" guys, we are making very quick and relatively violent steering inputs. I found that I can force the wheel much faster to the right using my left hand to pull across the top of the wheel than I can turning left pulling my right hand across the top of the wheel. In these cases, it's hard to leverage the opposite hand much since you are awkwardly trying to pull up with it to unwind the wheel in a slalom.

Here's the thing: even though I'm right-handed and my right arm is decidedly stronger than my left, it still feels much more natural guiding the wheel with my left hand. I think most right-handers would say that and I find that odd. The "slalom exercises" showed me that I *can* turn the wheel fast enough to the right to keep up with fast left inputs but it required a serious conscious effort. I find that odd as well. The faster the "slalom", the less I had to think about it but that is a simple function of not needing to move the wheel as much. I'm sure this issue is also amplified in the CRX due to the slow steering rack.

After examining some video a little more closely, it's pretty clear that I do most of my driving with my left hand even when both hands are on the wheel. You can see the left hand taking most of the "weight" of the wheel while the right hand is mostly there for moral support. It was interesting watching David's hands and seeing the same tendencies.

I believe another possible side-effect of "leading" mostly with one hand in very tight sections relates to the idea of "attack". If you've ever played a musical instrument, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You can play the same note on an instrument but depending on how you pick it, strike it, blow it or whatever, it will have its own unique character. I believe we turn the wheel in a similar manner and that is a large part of defining our driving styles.

What I found for myself is that my "attack" is different depending on which direction I'm turning. When I have to give a very quick input to the left requiring me to lead with my right hand, it's a little wobbly compared to a slower left turn where I can get away with leading with my left hand. It almost feels like I'm trying to throw something with my left arm which is an ugly proposition at best. Think about it the next time you find yourself in a tight slalom and see if you have trouble keeping up in one direction -vs- the other. I've never heard of anybody discussing this but it seems like it could be worth some time out on course in certain circumstances.

It's probably stupid but I've started trying to force myself to drive with my right hand on the street. I'm hoping I'll have to think less and less about quick maneuvers to the left but only time will tell.

Jim
- yep, I talk too much


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:25 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Run #4 from Saturday

Run #5 from Sunday

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:52 pm 
Offline
Not spectacular just decent
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: Heading back to base for debriefing and cocktails.
I really need toturn the radiodown before I get to start. Can you guys hear that outside the car while I'm on course?

_________________
Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:56 pm 
Offline
Not spectacular just decent
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: Heading back to base for debriefing and cocktails.
Don't know if I can do it this week, but I was interested in maybe compositing our runs into one video. I have to crank up Final Cut to do that, but thought it might be interesting.

_________________
Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


Last edited by David Spratte on Mon May 07, 2007 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:09 pm 
Offline
You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
I just did a quick review of GEEZ data for my fourth run on Sunday. Normally my max G's will favor one direction or the other (symetrical car, unbalanced driver :lol: ). However, on this course the left and right were essentially equal. (about 1.6 peak, 1.35 sustained).

Note that the busiest part of the course were the elements just after the first slalom. In my car I changed directions every 0.6 to 0.7 seconds) but the g's were only about 1.0 (driver couldn't steer fast enough to dare drive faster (need to do arm exercises!!!). Note that the transition rate in this area and several others was over 7.5 g's per second.

There are also areas of full throttle acceleration with over one g of cornering.

One of the fun places was trail braking into the Chicago box (aka bus stop?) after the crossover at .7 g braking and 1.1 g cornering.

Lots of full throttle acceleration ( a mere 0.6 g's in second gear thanks to only 115 hp)

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 pm 
Offline
You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
David Spratte wrote:
I really need toturn the radiodown before I get to start. Can you guys hear that outside the car while I'm on course?


David,

You would be better off listening to what the car/tires are telling you. They make lots of "real time useful feedback" noise during a run . . . even though R tires don't squeal.

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:47 pm 
Offline
Badass

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:24 am
Posts: 494
Jim, you have amazing powers of observation and analysis! Seriously, your ability to see things in drivers is unbelievable. I never would have noticed LHB on anyone. I'm definitely LHB in a car, but I do my best to keep my hands locked at 3:00 & 9:00. Also, at least in my mind, I focus on pushing the steering wheel for my *initial* inputs...between my hacky moments that is. The reality is, for the most part, I don't think about what my hands are doing...I just want nice initial slow inputs when I'm in sync.

Just bought a Cone Cam from Donnie and will be interested to see some in-car footage of my driving. I haven't seen any in years...got tired of editing the profanity :-)

Eric


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:33 am 
Offline
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:08 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: Raleigh NC
Our camera mount came last week, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet. When Donna drove the Chiles/Jacobs Minis they taped every run, we watched them but never got much of a chance to really analize them in depth.
Has anyone tested parameters to get the DL1 to turn on and off automatically that worked dependably for AX? Altho all this technology is great to have, with so many things to turn on and off it could get distracting in a hurry. The more I can automate the less distractions. I made one run Sun forgetting to turn off the traction control.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:51 am 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Chuck Frank wrote:
Has anyone tested parameters to get the DL1 to turn on and off automatically that worked dependably for AX? Altho all this technology is great to have, with so many things to turn on and off it could get distracting in a hurry. The more I can automate the less distractions. I made one run Sun forgetting to turn off the traction control.


I've heard people have tried it and it wasn't good enough. You should give it a try and see if you can get it to work, though...nobody I know well has tried it, at least that I've asked. Jim? You tried it? You enable it with the little Windows config tool...

I'm using a Chasecam PDR-100 recorder when I do video. Ultimately there will be a single remote you will be able to buy to trigger both units. Currently you can hack your own if you like, though...all you'd have to do is know enough electronics to rig up the "log status" output on the DL-1 connector to a transistor to turn a relay on and off and then run the contacts of the switch that turns on the recording function of your recorder. Or if it expects a momentary signal you'd need to do a small amount of more electronics to make that happen. I could do all that, but I'd just assume wait for the finished product that will be available for my setup...

A really neat hack would be to tie into the Traction Control button so that when you turn off TC it starts data and video. You might have to worry about the legality of that one, though.


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:28 am 
Offline
Not spectacular just decent
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: Heading back to base for debriefing and cocktails.
DickRasmussen wrote:
David Spratte wrote:
I really need toturn the radiodown before I get to start. Can you guys hear that outside the car while I'm on course?


David,

You would be better off listening to what the car/tires are telling you. They make lots of "real time useful feedback" noise during a run . . . even though R tires don't squeal.


Actually, I put the music in when I clipped the video. :lol:
I don't really listen to that song. . . Danger Zone. Maybe.

I did have to turn the radio down during that run.

Apparently when you run out of range of Triad's FM transmitter it breaks to loud static. And right before the hard two-cone left is when you get to the end of the leash.

_________________
Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: Probably somewhere near an autocross.
David Spratte wrote:
I did have to turn the radio down during that run.

Apparently when you run out of range of Triad's FM transmitter it breaks to loud static. And right before the hard two-cone left is when you get to the end of the leash.


EXACTLY!!!!

I lifted when it happened to me on my first run Sunday. I thought something had fallen off the Mini and I was dragging it! (Not that that has ever happened before..........rrrrriiiight!)

_________________
SCCA Solo Triad Award Recipient 2014
SCCA HSL National Champion 2012
SCCA DSL National Champion 2013
SCCA DSL National Champion 2014
NCR National Driver of the Year 2012
THSCC Heel of the Year 2011
Former Club Secretary
http://www.petscompanioninn.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:55 am 
Offline
Not spectacular just decent
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: Heading back to base for debriefing and cocktails.
Sunday's course.

I did a pretty primitive side by side of me and Jim's Sunday runs. And while I think I had a better start of the line (R compounds FTW!11!) Jim manages to make up the time before we even get to the slalom.

From there I just keep bleeding time away until the bustop and the slalom. I think I made some up there, but no where near enough.

Okay, back to work. If I keep this up I'll start thinking about data acqui$ition.

_________________
Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:55 pm 
Offline
I got a SUX2000!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
So I saw several people carrying cameras at this event - anyone spotted some photos on the internet yet?

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group