will this kick me out of STS?

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:42 pm

The frequency valve that comes stock with my car is notoriously unreliable. mine hasn't failed yet, but i have a chance to buy an after market valve for $30. the after market valve is just a stock valve made stronger. it doesn't change the boost levels, but it does "smooth" them out apparetly. will this kick me out fo STS?

I read the rules and they are pretty specific about no mods that increase the boost levels. i don't know if changing the curve counts or not. anyway, i would love to get this thing cause it is cheap and i'm sure my valve will go sooner or later.

i've heard of other 1.8T owners using these in STS in other clubs, but i wanted to check with you guys first, since it is a fuzzy call.

btw, it's called an N75 J Valve.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:51 pm

By the SCCA rules, it will. By the rules, you need to use the stock one only.

Until alternative motor mounts become legal for STS, the Neon guys would have to change their mounts out at an extreme rate. Some guys would not even get a couple of events before they would start to tear. I'd much rather change out a valve then a motor mount

- AB

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I wouldn't worry about it, but that's just me.

"Are you sure you decided to install that? Maybe you decided against it - yeah, actually, I remember that you did." :wink:

,

edit:

PS - No, I didn't have alternate motor mounts installed on my car all year; I always swapped the stock ones back in before every autox.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:19 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it, but that's just me.

So it is okay to cheat?

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:23 pm

The rules also specify that every competitor will have a rule book, and there are even tidbits in there about factory service manuals...

Is the new part a VW part? Is it the same or different part number than the original part? If it is a different part number, does it superceed the original part?

Scott

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:37 pm

Non stock parts tuned to stock specs are still illegal. Even so you still need to look into it. If I were you I'd look at two things.
1. how often will this part fail?
2. how much and how easy is it to replace?
If an aftermarket part does the exact same thing as the stock part but it's stronger, more reliable, and cheaper IE just plain better. Then I say heck yeah go with it as long as it does't make the car faster. But if you get protested you better not whine because the car IS illegal. If it's a part that will fail at any random moment(neon mounts) why not go with something you know is better. But if it's a part you know will last for 50k miles or more there really is no excuse for an aftermarket one in my opinion.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Quote:

So it is okay to cheat?

Whatever.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I thought cheating involved an unfair advantage. At our level, I don't think a smoother boost thingie is going to make a difference.

Of course, Chris' evil twin could show up with the exact same car and the exact same driving skills, but without the frequency valve - so I guess that guy would be screwed, wouldn't he? But if he's evil, maybe he deserves to get beat. Hmmm...

Anyway, Rob hit the nail on the head - if you do have illegal modifications on your car but choose to run in the class that common sense says you should be in, be prepared to be bumped if some weenie protests. That's what I did this year with the engine mounts, and nobody protested. But if somebody did protest, I was fully prepared to be bumped to STX.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:07 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Anyway, Rob hit the nail on the head - if you do have illegal modifications on your car but choose to run in the class that common sense says you should be in, be prepared to be bumped if some weenie protests. That's what I did this year with the engine mounts, and nobody protested. But if somebody did protest, I was fully prepared to be bumped to SM.

It turns out you are running an illegal STS and using that PAX. How would you have done in PAX if your car was STS legal or using the SM PAX?

We can easily calculate using the SM PAX. As for trying to figure what the results woud be with a legal car, that is a little more difficult.

Motor mounts are not a weenie protest. Kind of taints the awards ceremonies now doesn't it? :shock:

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:10 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

The rules also specify that every competitor will have a rule book, and there are even tidbits in there about factory service manuals...

Is the new part a VW part? Is it the same or different part number than the original part? If it is a different part number, does it superceed the original part?

Scott

if you ask VW, they will say no, it's not a VW part b/c it's been modified to be stronger....BUT....every VW tech will tell you to use the modified part b/c the stock one is junk. VW will never officially say this b/c it would imply that something is "wrong" with the stock part.

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:13 pm

Rob Keehner wrote:

Non stock parts tuned to stock specs are still illegal. Even so you still need to look into it. If I were you I'd look at two things.
1. how often will this part fail?
2. how much and how easy is it to replace?
If an aftermarket part does the exact same thing as the stock part but it's stronger, more reliable, and cheaper IE just plain better. Then I say heck yeah go with it as long as it does't make the car faster. But if you get protested you better not whine because the car IS illegal. If it's a part that will fail at any random moment(neon mounts) why not go with something you know is better. But if it's a part you know will last for 50k miles or more there really is no excuse for an aftermarket one in my opinion.

don't know how often they fail. apparently with chipped cars (which mine is not) they fail as regularly as one per month. i haven't read much about the frequency of non-chipped cars failing.

they are easy to replace, probably a 1/2 hour job. if i see where you are going with this, i really don't want to change it out with the stock one for autocrosses. all this stuff is regulated by the MAF and they are flakey as is. if i go changing the valve out twice a month, i'm sure to break something more expensive.

don't worry, if i do use the part and i get protested, i'll take my lumps with a smile.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:16 pm

Chris Brown wrote:

if you ask VW, they will say no, it's not a VW part b/c it's been modified to be stronger....BUT....every VW tech will tell you to use the modified part b/c the stock one is junk. VW will never officially say this b/c it would imply that something is "wrong" with the stock part.

If you want the official opinion, email the scca for clarification. The STAC should provide you with a quick answer.

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:22 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

If you want the official opinion, email the scca for clarification. The STAC should provide you with a quick answer.

i looked over the scca.com web page and couldn't find a suitable email address. would you happen to have it?

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:23 pm

Boy... don't I wish I was in STS to make the "weenie" protests against all the illegal cars... There sure seem to be more people than I would have thought that are OK with running that way. Sheesh. If you're going to do it, at least have the decorum not to tell the whole world about it. "Yeah, I'm a cheat and I'm proud of it."

I'm guessing Kevin won STS given Jim's post above... if it was up soley to me, I believe I'd DQ him since he's got an illegal car (performance enhancing or not)... but hey, that's just me. Has to kinda minimize the win a bit though if the car's not really supposed to be in that class.

This is a *huge* pet peeve of mine... can you tell?

Diane ~ who's sure she's stirred up some trouble, so will have to leave it to Jason and Robert to moderate if needed.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Quote:

As for trying to figure what the results woud be with a legal car, that is a little more difficult.

If it had been legally prepared for national competition, the results would've been a lot better, that's for sure. But with the half-assed, constantly-changing setups that I used this year - including using the stock springs at Rocky Mt. :shock:

I don't think the motor mounts contributed a whole lot.

If enough folks disagree with me, I'll be glad to return all the trophies and be shunned from the year-end awards...

Sorry to get the thread slightly off-topic, Chis.

Jonathan Rodriguez · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:31 pm

Man, you people are harsh. You want to DQ cars that had a mod that didn't help them performance-wise just because you can? What happened to the spirit, not the letter of the law? If people are using parts that don't help the car's performance, but makes it more reliable, I say let them use it. Our sport is expensive enough. The intent of the rules is to keep people from giving their cars an unfair performance advantage. If a mod doesn't go against that philosophy, what's the problem?

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