THSCC Forums

To pull this topic out of the format discussion:
Being able to visualize a course and your run thru it is IMHO a critical skill to develop. The sooner you develop that skill the sooner your run time differences will be reduced because you can concentrate on driving rather than finding the course on your first run(s). When we started running national events this was a daunting task since Nationals courses are typically very long and complex and you only get three shots at it, so you can't afford to waste a run finding the course. We would spend hours making a dozen or more course walks until we were thrown off the course, grilling each other at dinner, before bed and at breakfast the next morning (Nationals courses are typically open for walking the afternoon/evening prior to the event) and still would only know where the course went turn by turn like a line drawn on paper but could not "picture" car placement in our minds, so the first run was still concentrated on "finding the course". Then once we each "found the course we still didn't have a simple way to communicate what we learned on our runs and give each other tips and critiques quickly and precisely.
A couple seasons ago we developed a system we call "naming the course" that we use that allows us to learn a course, even a large complex course, with confidence in two to three walk thrus. We can mentally picture exactly where we want to place the car and where the critical cones are, and most importantly we can communicate information about the course between us with clarity even in the heat of battle, while making adjustments, checking tire pressures and getting a cool drink. If anyone would like to learn our system they can join us for our course walks at any event, and we'll "walk" you thru it.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Even though there are several folks out there who are multi-time national champions who *don't* visualize the courses?

Again, while it is a good skill for *many* people and it is probably something everyone should try for a season or so, it may not be for everyone. You do definitely need to be able to walk a course and then remember well where it goes when you drive it, but I just wouldn't extend that all the way to everyone needs to be able to run it "at speed" in their heads multiple times to the point that they drive it the same in their heads as they do on the course. Yes, that may be a good tactic for many, but I say it isn't something required to be a great autocrosser.

So while I'm not completely disagreeing with you, I do think people should know that if visualization becomes some frustrating experience where you find yourself pre-planning way too much (like you keep having moments on course where you go "crap, I didn't need to brake there...why am I doing that?"), you may want to reconsider either your method of visualization or whether you do it at all.

I tried it for a couple of years at a lot of big and little events. I noticed that at the little events, where I tended to be too late to get enough course walks to visualize I was generally a lot faster relative to my benchmarks (people like Eric, for example). I figured out what was different and changed that everywhere. Now this season has been my best season ever and I haven't visualized a thing.


--Donnie, no-visualizing-mo-fo, Barnes

I'll backup Donnie on that. I just need to know the course/elements and the approximate placement of the car in critical elements. I never pick braking points, or where I will lift, etc.... This way I don't limit myself by being convinced I must lift/brake/full throttle. As I run the course, I will figure that out. My results using this for the last year have been much better in the past when I made a lot of decisions ahead of time. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I would third that. I only pick out the two or three key cones and know where the car has to be for those, and the rest is winged just so long as I am set up for those two or three points. Chances are that I'll cock up somewhere anyway and have to throw away any visualization just to get back with the program.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I'm a big fan of visualization (thanks to lots of coaching from Eric). It helps me concentrate on going fast on my first run rather than trying to figure out where I'm going. Having said that, I am still not advanced enough to 'figure it out' once I'm on the course. I like to go into my first run KNOWING where I want to brake, turn, etc. (this drives Eric crazy because he is a 'figure it out' kind of driver) But that also means I have to use subsequent runs to make the appropriate adjustments (such as 'brake less here').

I think there is a balance between the two. There has certainly been enough research done on the subject to support the benefits of visualization. (heck, Eric and I just saw the F1 guys doing some visualization this past weekend!) And I'm sure I will always use it. But I aspire to be able to do more 'figuring it out' once I'm on course, especially when it comes to braking and acceleration zones.

The driver you saw visualizing was Nico Rosburg. Bernie and I pointed that out too. I think visualization is one of many ways to learn the course. I’ve walked and ridden with both Donna and Chuck and have taken quite a few pointers from both about how they name the courses. While I don’t spend time thinking about what to “name” a section, some just seem to jump out and name themselves, and that does help me with how to drive them. But then, I’m also bad for drawing mental pictures of phone numbers on a keypad rather than actually remembering the number. Is that what they call left brain dominant? As Donnie said, people learn in very different ways. I’ve tried to use what I can from any number of suggestions. Drawing the course works for me, much the same as writing down a name helps me remember it better than just hearing it. I also use markers such as a tree or post in the distance, knowing that if I’m aligned with that marker I’m on my line. This I’ve taken from using range markers in blind situations on the waterway when Bernie and I were taking the boat on trips.

Anyone who knows me also knows I probably walk the course more than just about anyone. I really want it to seem like the old neighborhood when I drive it. (Or, maybe I'm just frightened of getting lost and having the big DNF by my name!)

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SCCA Solo Triad Award Recipient 2014
SCCA HSL National Champion 2012
SCCA DSL National Champion 2013
SCCA DSL National Champion 2014
NCR National Driver of the Year 2012
THSCC Heel of the Year 2011
Former Club Secretary
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I think that the EXPERTS here are leaping way past what I was describing. With all the "multitime national champions" I see at national events bobbing and weaving around with their eyes closed (including Eric and Tim) I certainly can't say with such certainty they don't (or need to)visualize the courses! There may be a few with such experience and skills that they do that, but I still see GH, Priebe, Daddio, Jr. Johnson, Strano, Hollis et al out making a number of course walks, maybe they've told you they are only out for the exercise, but they have all told me they were visualizing the course...
I'm not talking about pre planning every aspect of a run, simply using a memory trick to easily remember the course layout, and at the same time eliminating all but the key cones. This was not aimed at anyone who is such an expert AXer that they can win without even walking a course, so you can go off and do whatever, it was an offer to help those who still have trouble finding the course on their first runs or are concentrating more on the layout than on driving it.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I prefer to either chair the event or help with setup, and get in several practice runs - much more beneficial in knowing where you can and can't get the car into a nice drift.

Ah ha! so you're the guy that puts down all the rubber on the course before the events. Here I thought it was real convenient coincidence that the setup people had those nice tracks to follow in placing the cones...

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I'm definitely a "figure it out as you go" kind of guy. I've tried both and making too much of a plan before taking my runs always messes me up. While I will walk the course as much as anybody, it's mainly just to figure out where I want the car to be rather than figuring out my braking points and such.

My main approach is to unwind the turn "backwards" and figure out where I want to get on the gas instead of trying to figure out where I need to be braking. As I'm approaching an element for the first time, I'll do whatever I need to do to set myself up so that I can get back on the gas as quickly as possible. I generally let my rear-end dictate where and when I'll be braking (or just lifting) and that is all done on the fly so trying to make a plan beforehand just confuses the situation.

I tried visualizing the course before I ran and I felt like it put me in a "box". Sure, my runs may have been slightly more consistent but they were slower overall than if I just went out there and drove on instinct. It was hard to break out of the "box" and go faster due to the fact that I wasn't as willing to extend myself during a run and push myself beyond my self-imposed limits.

I think you just have to find out what works for you. I don't care how many "jackets" a person has, if their approach doesn't work for you, don't use it!!! The important part is to be willing to try a few different approaches and always be open to new suggestions and ideas.

Jim
- just an old oval-racing karter at heart, brakes-- what brakes?

I'm no expert and neither is Donnie. We were just relaying our methods. Certainly I've done the 'dance method' and I've seen plenty of current and former National Champs doing it, but I've seen just as many not doing it. Mike Johnson, Beth and Erik Strelniks, Jason Saini, and many others just get a feel for where the course is, pick out key elements and let the car go where it needs to. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

A proper visualization does not predetermine exactly where and how you will perform on the course. Instead it includes you visualizing yourself doing exactly the right thing at the right place at the right time. You can't predetermine precisely turn-in points, braking granularity, etc, but you can rehearse yourself performing these tasks in a perfect manner in real time.

A better name for this is mental rehearsal. Your goal is not to figure out ahead of time "exactly" how to drive a course..that will come with practice on the course. Your goal is rehearse yourself quickly learning the new course and rapidly maximizing your on-course performance to the limits of the car. You also expand that to include rehearsing recovering from minor (and major) lapses in real-time judgment (i.e. coming in too hot, am going to just miss the apex, understeering too much --- how do you respond to recognize this early enough to significantly influence the outcome? -- etc...). Mental rehearsals can (and should with time) become very elaborate but that doesn't mean complicated by any stretch.

Mental rehearsal is extremely important to human performance. Consider that human performance can be broken down into three things: mental strategies, mental states and beliefs. The level of importance of these is in reverse order. Having a supportive set of core beliefs is critical. Adding to that with being in the proper mental state for the task at hand being 2nd most in importance (any good mental rehearsal includes putting yourself in the mental state you will be in during the task (prehaps relaxed, focused, elated) and rehearsing staying in that state throughout the task). Finally, mental strategies -- these are the "rules" of the performance -- how to drive: where and, more importantly, "how" to turn, brake, accelerate, etc. The last part is what most think of when they try to "learn" driving without often realizing it is only part of the whole "system".

Note that everything I wrote up above are my "beliefs". None of it is real or not real, right or wrong. If it is supportive to obtaining superior performance then perhaps it’s useful. However, I've found mental rehearsal to be incredibly powerful at many things in life. Without some training on how to do it, I’m not sure one can appreciate the potential.

Chuck

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
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1975 CanAm 125MX2

Who is the flamethrower now? Sheesh.

Besides, your list has at least one name on it who usually only walks a National course three times and NEVER visualizes. I'd tell you who, but then I'd probably just get branded as an EXPERT again.

Dude, chill. Aaron and I and others relayed what works for them. You started a good thread, I was just adding my perspective. Makes me wonder "What is your problem today?"


--Donnie

I don't have enough seat time to try and do accurate visualization. So I'm in the camp of "find the make or break (not brake) elements and wing the rest."

Generally I can remember the route, but won't have the specifics until I'm behind the wheel. If I try to get too specific it's too much and I end up overthinking what I should be doing. Like turning the traction control off.

The winging it part reinforces the need to look ahead way ahead and so the course walks are there to tell me which direction to look.

I appreciate the visualization guys though. It's great to sneak up on them while they have their eyes closed and yell "RED FLAG!" I found this to be most effective in grid. Preferably if they have their helmet already on.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

I think the above is the problem for many people. I certainly believe it's possible that with more "training" on visualization skills that I may one day benefit from it. But all my attempts so far have ended with nothing more than it hurting me, and I feel like I've exhausted the realm of what I might do to rectify it (at least on my own). Then I had an epiphany one evening while having dinner with one of the people on Chuck's list that perhaps not only did I not *need* to visualize, but it was actually hurting me (at least the technique that I was using).

So I stopped and pretty quickly I got a lot better. It forced me to look ahead more. That said, I do feel like that at a National event I can get the mental rehearsal that I *need* during the course walks. I take one walk just sort of to get the lay of the land so to speak, and simply start by thinking about looking ahead. After that, the only thing I do is walk and look where I need to be looking. I try to look there the entire time I'm walking. I feel like for me, the extended length of time I'm looking at the same general area while walking reinforces it well enough for while I'm driving.

Sure, I know it's *bad* to pre-plan too much during visualization. But for some reason, I can't seem to get my brain to turn that off. That said, visualization has helped me at road racing, particularly with courses that I haven't run in a while. But there I think the recipe for "what" to do is pretty good, whereas it's much more ill defined at autocross until after you've run it. I won't say that I haven't visualized at all this season, but I try to keep it to a minimum, and more often than not only do it between runs (so I've already run it once). But even then, I worry about reinforcing something I *shouldn't* have been doing, so I don't do it much.

As far as what might help you, ask yourself honest questions about what your "problem" is on course. If you're getting lost you definitely need to work on that somehow. I've been lucky in that I get courses in my head pretty quickly, I think. But if you don't, work on ways to fix that. It could very well be that visualization will work for you. For particularly long courses I've seen people stop and visualize a section they just walked *during* the course walk, thereby "breaking it up" a little to help get it to process.


--Donnie