THSCC Forums

Because you asked for it , here's the thread off the visitors forum.

I like the all at once format cause it allows you to:

1. run large numbers of people thru an event in a relatively short peroid of time. ( this translates to more runs for a smaller group)
2. affords you the opportunity to correct mistakes while they are still fresh in your mind
3. for those folks with national aspirations gets you familiar with that format.
4. affords a more equitable run/ work format than our old fixed run groups.
and on a totally personal basis allows the WC more time to walk the course prior to the drivers meeting.

O.K. let er rip

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

I have mixed feelings. Because I am a slow learner (and apparently a slow driver) I like the way we split it because it gives me some time to analyze my mistakes and try to correct them. It also lets the organizers use the second half to see if there is time to get more runs in as opposed to having to make the decision before the first run group finishes.

On the other hand, running all at once is traditional and prepares you for national competition and seems to be the way most clubs run (This point alone may be a way to keep our current format, lest we lose our status as elitist snobs)

The final good point to running all at once is that if my group runs first or second, I can leave after my runs and go home

Maybe we should mix it up, run some events in one format others in the other, there is no rule that says we have to be consistent.

just my $.02

AAO keeps competitors in class from getting 239473 ridealongs between runs.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

If you allow the second half to decide if there's enough time for more runs, those folks working the second half get screwed time and time again because they have to work longer, thats why theres always a scramble to get in the first work group.
If you split the classes evenly using axware then all groups are relatively even. If the groups are even then half way through the first group will tell you how many runs you can make.
The splitting it up idea may be the way to go. Smaller attendance would allow for that format where as larger groups would run aao and perhaps we won't have to turn folks away as we did in Sanford.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Just a point of reference...

We don't have to do fixed run groups with the split run format. We could assign them on event day if we wanted to.

Someone's gotta ride with the novices. Being a novice mentor helps.

I agree the all at once method is waaaay more efficient, but it favors the people running in the afternoon because the course is cleaner and has more rubber layed down so it's stickier IMO. Plus, you get a halftime walk. The downside is the storms usually occur in the afternoon moreso than the morning.

If we do a all at once run style, I think 5 runs is doable on a consistent basis if attendence is around 120 or less.

I think AAO certainly provides some advantage, specifically for very large, very complex events. The simplicity and universal nature suits this type of venue well, and we should use it when it's suitable.

That said, I like our "normal" split groups better for standard events since it:
1) normalizes the weather variances a bit across the field, which is interesting when you compare yourself outside your class - a much bigger issue with the small-attendance classes of local events
2) makes it more of a whole day event, which I actually like when you burn a day or weekend to do it.
3) gives time to prep, tune, relax etc...
4) condones socialization, as an extension of the relax theme, above

Granted, our traditional format is NOT national style, and I think that's perfectly ok - we're a local club with local competition, burning our weekends to have fun. I think our standard format actually promotes the fun and social aspects a bit more.

and my take on some of the previous comments favoring AAO:
1) Per Scott's note above, I think there's got to be some middle ground in the worker assignments to make our standard format more like the AAO format from the WC perspective - that seems to be one of the big simplifications that smoothes things out.
2) adding runs half way through the day is easier in our standard format - you CAN do it in the first group, but weather plays a bigger picture, again.
3) second half workers - frankly, I think this will always be an issue. Everybody should always want to work early - it's cooler, you get to see cars run the course, and people like to leave early. Switching up the run groups on occasion will keep longer second half work assignments normalized across the board.
4) ride alongs - in our normal format which allows ride alongs, I don't see how AAO changes this. Sure, I could get more rides before my first run, but I'll have the same potential for # of rides. Again, this is local competitiion, so I don't see this as being a big issue - and in fact I thin ride alongs are an important part of the LOCAL scene.
5) fresh memories of the course - While it's probably more nationals like, I think AAO gave me LESS opportunities to correct mistakes. It was rush back to grid, get the tires cooling, tweak the setup, drink water, get the helmet back on, and run again. Very little processing time, and that's with larger run groups than we'd normally see in a local event.
6) more runs, less time - I don't really buy this argument, as our normal events, barring timer issues or flags run start to finish without stop. It's overlap and course design that determines the length of the day, and those aspects have been carefully planned for the 2 events we did AAO.

My $.02...

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

Split runs will always get my vote. Why, you ask , well…

1) I autoX more for social reasons than anything else. If we didn't run split runs, we'd eventually have a large number of people who did their runs and worker assignments and then just went home. (Note that Rob has already mentioned here he could do this.) As the membership pool turns over (and it will!), this run/work/leave scenario will become more the norm than the exception. "Back in the day", I ran events with Triad and VMSC. Triad split runs and I got to know a lot of those folks because I was there all day with them. VMSC used the show-up/run/work/leave method and I know almost *none* of those folks because people didn't have to be there (and weren’t) all day.

And, I'll take this one step further. We once showed the front cover of an H&T to Richard West (of VMSC) and he was *stunned* at the number of volunteers we have listed there. I fully believe that stems from the social aspect of this club. Do away with that and I think the camaraderie and volunteerism will *greatly* diminish over time.

If you want to make THSCC become only about autoXing, go to running all at once. If you want to keep THSCC a social club, with all the camaraderie and volunteerism that comes with it, keep the split format. Yes, keeping THSCC a "social club" *is* my #1 reason.

2) From an autoXing standpoint, I, personally, like having the time between runs to think more about my runs and discuss any "issues" I might be having. a) Running "all at once" is only like Nat'l Tours/Nat’ls, not ProSolos/ProSolo Finales. b) What percentage of our members run nat'l events regularly anyway. Those who do, prep by running *lots* of clubs' events. c) Having time to think through and/or discuss your first 2 runs with somebody before making your 2nd 2 runs is a useful learning tool, thus aiding in prep for the next level.

There's also the issue of time for car or tire repair if the runs are split. We surely encountered that last weekend with our tires.


Ride-alongs is another issue altogether, but since Wes has given that as his reason for running all runs at once, I'll go there. Ride-alongs is a fairly new "perk" in THSCC (since I know some of you young whipper-snappers don't know that ). While I agree that it's a great learning tool, my *personal* opinion is that, from a truly competition standpoint, it is really quite unfair to allow ride-alongs for other than allowing a Nov to ride-along with a non-Nov (since I've been a member, we've always allowed Nov ride-alongs in *both* directions). In general, Carl's a faster/better driver than I am and he usually drives first and let's me ride along. Sometimes I pick up something from what he's doing and sometimes I don't, but **any** look at the course at speed is an advantage. If you want to talk about prep for how nat'l-level events will run, we should remove the ride-alongs. At least for me, ride-alongs add a pre-run level of comfort that you’ll never get at any nat’l event.

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The person with too many names...
Mary E./ME/Emmie Fisher/Daniel/Daniel-Fisher
(& some others not suitable for posting!).
Help support our habits; BUY http://virginiabreeze.us !

How does AAO allow this?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I think it happened that way in Greenville and GBO because the courses allowed a 20-second launch interval. My math says launch interval controls the length of the event. It doan make no difference whether we run 2+2 or 2+3 or all at once.

I like the 2+X format for all the reasons stated by Mary. Rob, I know you wouldn't just run and split , but all-at-once will encourage some folks to do just that, thus, missing the best part: The Socializing!! Plus, we need to have folks hang around to help pick up the course.

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Brad

I really don't know other than the last three days of running this format has been the smoothest running events since I've joined. Someone and I won't mention who, told me this is why they run this format at national events.
Maybe I'm wrong but EVERYONE said these events were the smooth, efficient and fast. I guess efficiency is an intangible, but course overlap and design sure had somethimg to do with it also( see Dustins post).Overlap mostly, and design so as to put 3 drivers on the course at one time.
Why do split runs take longer?? They sure seem to, maybe its because you have to go out twice to run and twice to work!!

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

From the standpoint of socialization, I’ve found the AAO format to be great. Run, Work, PLAY the rest of the day with friends. With the split run format it always seems as if I’m running to the car to run, or running to the work station to work. I like the AAO format also because you only have to work once. Split probably helps you out more if you have setup or tire issues. I used to think split was better ‘cause I could usually get help with were I messed up the first 2 runs. Now, I like having a few minutes to check tire pressure and cool the tires while I’m thinking about were I should do something different and get to do it differently right away. (Yea, like that usually works!)

I guess the argument of the afternoon workers having the bad deal working longer could be equalized by letting Axware figure out run groups regardless of whether you run AAO or split.

Finally, since everyone has probably noticed by now that I’m crazy for autoX, I’ve decided to pick my battles and go with the flow on AAO or split. I figure I’ll get a dose of one or the other running with other clubs.

Side bar…the little green machine has a new tranny…her third, by the way, and is ready for the September events.

_________________
SCCA Solo Triad Award Recipient 2014
SCCA HSL National Champion 2012
SCCA DSL National Champion 2013
SCCA DSL National Champion 2014
NCR National Driver of the Year 2012
THSCC Heel of the Year 2011
Former Club Secretary
http://www.petscompanioninn.com

That's the way it is *now* because we all know each other from prior socializing. As I mention above, I think you'll see that diminish more and more in a full-time AAO format as it takes its toll on who actually *does* stick around. And, eventually, the most of what use to be the post-event dinner gang will be packed up and gone before the last run group finishes.

Question: What formats do Triad and CCR now run regularly?

_________________
The person with too many names...
Mary E./ME/Emmie Fisher/Daniel/Daniel-Fisher
(& some others not suitable for posting!).
Help support our habits; BUY http://virginiabreeze.us !

Additionally, for me personally, I like the 2 plus 2, or sometimes 3 run setup because if I do bad in the morning I can blame it on something, regroup and do better in the afternoon.

At the NCAC, I never got into the "flow" and it remained that way four runs at a time, two days in a row.

I can see pros and cons to each format. With the split run group, one runs the risk of LESS socialization if you and your buddies drive in the same heats but work in opposite heats. At the NCAC, for the first time I was able to sit around and relax for about an hour with Brad, Kevin, Chris, Ryan and Amy and shoot the shit and allow the event to continue in the background. With split groups, I haven't seen anybody forced to take a time out for three of the five heats. It was nice.

Sure, overlap and the site dictate what is best -- square lots and small lots seem to suit the AAO format best, but I can't see that working well at Laurinburg especially now that the precedent has been set of stopping the event for an interim coursewalk.

I say leave it up to the event chairs and course designers. If one can have three on course at once with a sub 30 second launch interval then AAO FTW. Otherwise, leave the option open for splits, especially if there is a glimmer of hope for a fifth run. (However, when we made the call early both at Greenville and in the first heat Saturday at the NCAC, it didn't bite us in the rear).

Keep in mind that we have the bestest club in all the state, whatever we choose to do will work well and will also be yammered about ad nauseum on the intarweb.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.