THSCC Forums

I like what Graham said about novices and the confusion of A&B grids, experienced folks have trouble with this. so simply running four groups twice would eliminate some of the confusion and still have a 2+2 format. That would also put and end to the late workers excuse [I was in the wrong grid]. Doing away with the fixed run groups will remove a second impediment to a smooth event. while the run groups may have been even when they were created they are now skewed disproportionately toward prepared and mod classes. this fact places a large number of workers available for run groups 1&3 and a shortage of workers for run groups 2&4, as in Steve Remchaks
I'd really like to see run groups 1, 2, 3, 4, set up by AXware or in advance on a spread sheet so that all groups have the same number of drivers. You can run this twice to get the 2+2 format everyone seems to like, or once if so desired. This allows for only a small change when going from 2+2 to AAO. It also evens the work assignments by making the same number of workers available for all run groups. And we try to assign novices to work with experienced folks but sometimes it doesn't work out. ie. we assign the novices first and then run short of experienced workers.
The horn seems to be working well for calling the workers lets see how it goes on an airport site. I also will continue to assign workers at the time they are called, no early sign up. That eliminates the double work of early sign up and then checking the names off when workers are called, just sign up when your called.
I believe these things will help make us more efficient and more equitable on work assignments. And lastly the evening up of run groups affords organizers the advantage of making the decision to add runs earlier, rather than wait till all groups have run to see if enough time is available. With even run groups that decision can be made after the first group has run two runs... with fixed run groups you must wait till all have run. By being able to call exra runs before the first group finishes evens the work schedule so folks who work in the P.M. don't get screwed.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

AXWare can assign worker positions.

AXWare can not make a person show up on time.


I think an idea that does have some merrit is at least rebalancing the run groups for each event, if necessary. I may try to run those numbers tonight to see how out of balance we have been this year.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Ha, you assume that "that guy" in the pickup will have people to drop off. My guess is it will take 15-20 minutes to roud every one up.



As are several of your reasons. "It's they way it's done at nationals." The AAO format suits your personal training preferences.

Yes, we borrow the SCCA rulebook, but don't you think there is a reason that we boo at every meeting where someone mentions SCCA affiliation.

We DO NOT want to be like the SCCA.

If we do the AAO format, are we planning to stop every event for 30 minutes between the 2nd and 3rd heat to do a course walk, or are we going to really shaft the novices running in the 4th heat?

I see us spending a lot of time trying to fix a system that isn't very broken. Yes, we need to tweak things such that the afternoon workers get a little less screwed.

How might we do that?

1) 5-15 minute break between run groups 2, 3 and 4. That will also allow timing to print the results - and buy a print cartridge if it's out.

2) 4 runs only. Stop doing this 2+3 format. That is the #1 cause of shafting.

3) Intelligent course design. Fewer DNFs, cones and reruns result in shorter work assignments.

4) Assertive grid marshals. Balance out the lines, ask people if they are 2 driver cars and make them move, etc. It's all about communication.

The ONLY reason to do AAO vs 2+2 boils down to personal preference. The only people the split format *should* effect are the grid marshals.

Scott

Early results seem to indicate that our run groups are out of balance

Event 1- 10 more drivers in Group 2
Event 2- 14 more drivers in Group 2

Mmmmm Im hungry, Im going to get something to eat

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Oh, we want to be like Triad. I keep forgetting that Pick your poison.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

They do have an awning.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

Jim, believe it or not, I actually fear for the future of THSCC because I *do* really believe that going to AAO will eventually lead to less comaraderie which will subsequently lead to less volunteerism. If we decide to go there for all of our events, I *hope* I'm wrong. But, after experiencing VMSC's (and a few other clubs') events multiple times and seeing hardly *any* of the camaraderie around the site that I've experienced with THSCC from just about day-one, I can't be swayed to be a fan of efficiency just for efficiency's sake, even if AAO *is* more efficient (and I don't know if it is or not). I *do* believe the trend will be for people to leave early and not to stay and socialize, if they are done with their runs and worker assignments by ~1:30 (as Carl and I were last Sunday).

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The person with too many names...
Mary E./ME/Emmie Fisher/Daniel/Daniel-Fisher
(& some others not suitable for posting!).
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Wow, we have vastly different experiences with VMSC. I have been running with them for the past 6 years and have gotten to know a bunch of them. I think they are just as social and as friendly as any other club I have run with.

I am not a fan of their AAO format though. They run in car number order. It is the easiest and most efficient format in the world.

The demise of THSCC because we would run a different format? Hell, if we survived the wireless, we would survive a few AAO events.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Almost everything I was intending to say has already been said by Emmie, and much more eloquantly than I would have too. Split runs are by far my preference, for the reasons she states.

But something Ryan said has almost slipped by without notice: course design. At Greenville and the NCAC we had a Jim Pastorius-influenced course (I would say "designed" but I think his was not the only input?) in which no-one hit cones. The cones marked the limits of the course but did not define the line, so a missed exit was not a downed cone, it was just a slower run. The penalty was in the line, not in the cone.

The only reason 20-25 second launch intervals worked was the course design. At those intervals, a knocked cone has about a 50/50 chance of a red flag, and suddenly the whole flow of the runs stops, and then you're running less efficiently than a 40-second launch interval.

You simply cannot run tight launch intervals on a course where cones are there to be hit. Let the cones limit the course, but leave room to mess up the line and be slow without taking down a cone. That is how the events ran smoothly.

IMHO the run group format has little to do with it. AAO allows for more precise worker changeover, agreed, but that affects only a fixed overhead on the day. The real efficiency gains are in short launch intervals, which in turn is only possible with courses that result in few cone hits.

Note that tight vs. open, few cones vs. sea of cones, that has nothing to do with cone hits. Marking the limits vs. marking the line does. For example, at the NCAC turnarounds were marked by two gates rather than cones as turn-in, apex, and exit markers. You get exactly the same element, but with no cone hits. Slaloms will get hit, sure, but they're faster to work than gates. It's all in the course design.

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

Quite true, but with one clarification -- in most cases the launch interval is mostly limited by T&S's capability to keep up -- at least moreso than the ability of course workers to shag cones. A long course event with lots of cone penalties usually has T&S requiring more hold-starts and reruns than red flags.

I have pointed this out before but I'll say it again here for all future course designers at Sanford and Laurinburg: Design the last 1/2 of long courses to be as cone-free as possible. Want to put in tight stuff and lots of penalty cones? Do it in the first 1/2 of the course where the starter can see it and hold the next car for cone carnage.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I don't want to turn this into a personal debate, but I'd just like to address the points made:
My guess would be that the AAO format was adopted back in the pre computer days when times were handwritten on a card. It was easier and less likely to have mistakes if each card only needed to be handled once. This was the reason VMSC ran in car # order, and like VMSC old habits die hard even when there is no longer a valid reason for them. It's not a "fair" system to those who run first (course condition) or last (time since course walk) run groups. Don't believe it? check the pax results for the AAO events, what percent of the top people ran first run group? Try running HS or GS nationally for a while and see how much fun it is to always run on a green course. I see the veterans gridding at the end of the first grid even with the 2+2 format so they can run a cleaner course.
Someone please explain why it's more difficult to do worker coordination in the 2+2 format. Same number of workers, same number of stations, same number of worker changes (assuming 4 run groups in the AAO format). Seems more a lack of communication in establishing the process than being more difficult. Maybe a handout is in order?
Novices at least should also be coming in contact with novice coordinator/mentor chief. We used to have a very comprehensive novice handbook.
Yes If I had to get up at 4:00 AM to show up at an event at 7:00 AM to first run at 4:00 PM I would be a might bit cranky. I don't see very many pulling out early from our events, we have some of the most well attended trophy presentations than even some national events I've been to. There are a number of people in VMSC I know but never get to hardly say Hi to since they don't show until their needed to work or run whichever comes first, stay just until they've completed the other and they're gone!
I think it's interesting that there never was an originally posted question as far as I can read, and opinions are personal, it's the nature of the beast.
How does the format make any difference for the event coordinator except possibly by running the one you prefer you are preordained to find it more pleasant and relaxing? Having to put your car in grid a second time and make two runs in the PM is that much more stressful in the grand scheme of event coordinating? No offense intended, I really don't understand, so explaining it might sway my sympathy.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

If you're bringing the baby, I'd pass Scott. WC is a thankless FULLTIME position at an event.[/quote]


If I can make it to that Event I would be glad to be a worker cordinator


David - Who thinks WC is not that hard of a job and if we were not pregnanat would have volunteered to do it this year.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Geez. Can you find something else to complain about? I ran GS with you Nationally for 2+ years. I had ZERO problem paxing in the top 20% of drivers, 'while cleaning the course'. Besides, PAX is meaningless, for the entire class got the exact same conditions.

AAO doesn't hurt anyone, for all classes will run at the same time, and with and AAO setup, the classes are smaller, so the conditions remain the same for everyone in class.

In a 2+2 setup. I could be scheduled for heats 1-3, and run at the beginning of the group in order to avoid rain, or run at the end of the group in order to let it dry out... and with the 2+2 format, there are enough drivers and an A + B grid spots to help me out.

Honestly, I don't care what we do. Even if it isn't like a National AAO style, I still like the 2+2 format for our events. I feel the 2+2 allows for events that are more social, even though the AAO will help me get home quicker. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

You're pregnant? Holy Cow! Do you have pics? - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

This WAS a civil discussion until the flamemaster showed up...

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.