No Pro, No TIR, Year Long Novice....??

MilesBeam · **Joined:** Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:57 pm **Posts:** 427

Alright, Donnie opened the door with his comment in the thread about "gridding". I've put on my nomex underwear, Kevlar bulletproof vest and am ready to jump in the supersonic escape jet and enroll in the witness protection program.....

In all the proposals and TIR talk, I think it makes a lot of sense to abolish PRO class, TIR class and have a year long novice class. We would continue to publish pax finishes anyway, so the PRO guys will always know where they stand.

New folks can run in Novice the first year on whatever kind of tires they want. The second year, you can run in open on street tires. Yes, you may be competing against some folks on race tires, but if you are up against somebody who's been autocrossing for ten years, it is rare that the newbies will clobber them in only their second year of autocrossing anyway. And by the third year, if the newbie sticks around and becomes a veteran, maybe the class can be convinced to run street tires anyway, if that's what everybody wants.

After reading the full ten pages of the street tire debate, it seems like this would be a good approach.

As for screwing up points by not having PRO when a national champ shows up at our events.... well, hey nothing's perfect and I really don't think it screws things up that badly. It can have an affect, but it isn't going to cause anybody to lose a championship that should otherwise have won it, except in very, very, very, very rare cases. And the effect is nil, if the top competitors are at the event that the "PRO" guy shows up at.

Let's not forget the advantages of having national level folks show up at or events. These guys/gals can teach us more in ten minutes than some folks might learn all season. I love to have the national level guys come and run with us, in my class, and even happier to have them grid next to me. They are usually happy to answer questions and help and teach us a few things if asked. We need to do what we can to promote these guys to come to our events- not make them feel like they are inconveniencing the rookies because it interferes with a points race.

By the way, only THSCC members qualify for season points anyway, so anybody that comes that's not a THSCC member doesn't affect season points. And if that's not good enough, these guys would not care if they came and ran and didn't get any points or trophies- as long as we record their times in the published results, they're usually happy.

I would also be open to being flexible about how we define a "full year" for a novice. We need to be able to accommodate those that show up on event number 6 and 8 aren't ready to move to open quite yet. So.. maybe we give you a maximum number of 10 or 12 events in Novice. I'm flexible on that point.

The main thing is we have Open and Novice classes- No PRO and NO TIR.

okay, go ahead... shoot me down. I've said it!

Miles

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:14 pm

I second the motion. - AB

Dan Ecclestone · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:27 pm

I third the motion.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2003 10:03 pm

Im for it too, as long as it will stop all the damn bickering!

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:05 pm

I agree!

Especially the part about upping the amount of novice events...that would mean I'd still be eligible! ;-)

--Donnie

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:22 am

MilesBeam wrote:

By the way, only THSCC members qualify for season points anyway, so anybody that comes that's not a THSCC member doesn't affect season points. Miles

Just for my education here how does it work? Example: a non-member shows up and takes first and the usual top three THSCC members finish in order beneath him. Does the 2nd place THSCC member get first place points?

It doesn't affect me personally I was just curious since Miles brought it up.

BTW, I'm with Ryan on Miles' proposal if it will allow us to put this dead horse in the ground.
:toast:

Eric Peterson · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:24 am **Posts:** 494

You guys are being too easy on Miles. I wanted to see him have to use his "supersonic escape jet" :-)

Miles, you are a man of honor and to be commended for your thoughts. Personally, I'm totally flexible on whatever Tarheel decides to do - I don't think there is a wrong decision to be made. A lot of folks have done a really good job of expressing their concerns and interests, so I won't try to rehash what's already been said. Unfortunately, there is no solution that will make everyone happy. I believe that whatever (if any) decision is made on this topic the club members will adjust quickly and continue to enjoy the sport.

We all continue to come back to THSCC events b/c driving a car like a maniac and hanging out with cool people is a lot of fun. One does not have to take a trophy home to have had a fun and rewarding day. I had more fun driving my first Miata on street tires when Mary E was beating the crap out of me at every event than I do now....I think she beat me by 8+ seconds at Laurinburg once. And, I was more excited about beating her for the first time (after trying for 2 years) than I was winning my first national events. So, I'll continue to have fun at the events whatever the classing.

Finding the balance between what is the most fun, fair, and still allows the events to run as smoothly/easily as possible is a tough chore. If the idea of eliminating PRO and Street Tire class makes scoring the events a lot easier, efficient, quicker, and less demanding for the timing staff, then those factors are important ones to weigh. I always feel bad that many of the other timing folks are "prisoners of the bus" and don't get to enjoy the day b/c they are busting their hinnies. So, I'd be interested to see if eliminating these two classes would be helpful in this area or not.

Eric

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:43 am

Although I think TIR is fine, I would support this over creating a ringer tire list. If the goal is to populate open classes this would make more sense then "beating around the bush" with a banned tire list.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:45 am

Miles (and all)

This is what they do up here in the North East. They have a year long Novice class and no street tire classes (except the STS & STX ones). People just run in Open with their street tires if they don't want to buy race tires yet.

They do however have a PRO class, but it's a different format from what THSCC runs, and it pays money to the winers of a mid-day 8 person "challenge". I'm not suggesting THSCC do this as it adds overhead, essentially a "heat", and some pretty bored non-PRO compeditors in the middle of the day, but the fast guys here think it's fun.

Diane

Tom Hoppe · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:16 am **Posts:** 387

As long as we would keep some sort of top pax list then I would be up for eliminating either one. I'm not here to take trophies home, but to have fun and have some competition. As long as we have an event I can still have fun

and as long as we pax all the results I can still have my competition, so I'm in!

So this would NOT include setting up an "X" class for people to run in for "fun only"? I think we *should* set up a class like that for people that don't care to run in any other class......

-Tom

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:55 pm

Tom Hoppe wrote:

So this would NOT include setting up an "X" class for people to run in for "fun only"? I think we *should* set up a class like that for people that don't care to run in any other class......

-Tom

There is an alternative to "X" which is to enter a higher prep level class for your car. Maybe all the "I don't care about trophies folk can go to DM or EM depending on engine size and car weight. No new class or associated complications.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:33 pm

This sounds cool to me. I don't care about trophies but it is a cool feeling to beat someone who is really good. Someday I hope to even beat Jim :woo:

(One can dream) .

It would also develop open class competition whether they are on "Cheater" Azenis, Kumhos, Hoosiers, or old hard Dunlops.

I am not fanatic about changing or leaving it alone, but it would be nice to encourage more drivers to compete in open class.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

I like this idea. I think it addresses the issue of TIR no longer really being what it was intended to be when it was created. It also addresses the Open class issue. And should put an end to the debate over ringer tires.

The only part I think needs some adjusting is having Novice run any tires the 1st year. Let them run only street tires so they can learn to drive better and not have racing tires hiding their mistakes. I've made so many this year that I'm glad I had street tires. Two different brands actually. Once they enter Open class then they are just like anyone else. They run whatever they want.

I also agree with Tom that it would be nice to see the PAXed times to compare to other drivers in different classes. Just posting it once at the end of the event would be fine. The new system should not make it harder for people doing timing and scoring.

Graham

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Sounds like you're on to something Miles!

But the thing that confuses me - where are all the people who have been so vehemently _against_ the abolition of TIR? Or have none of them spoken up yet?