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In order to "get the car set up to go FAST in the FAST parts" you're going to HAVE to do the slow stuff right. Ever been to a school or T&T and nailed the slow stuff, then realized how much faster you're going in the fast stuff? I see what Mike is saying - assuming that all the fast people are running the slow stuff right (and they should), it's whoever hits the fast stuff the best that wins. Sometimes the timing is off, or whatever, and you just don't nail it.

The slow stuff is what wins most rallyxes, btw. I see the slow stuff as a great place to add time to your run if you want to, but I'd rather get through as efficiently as possible while setting myself up to hit the faster stuff after the exit of the slow section with as much throttle as possible. In talking to the other guys about what kind of speeds we were hitting on the "straights" at OA, they were going just as fast as I was - but they also "looked fast" in some of the slower places, and that was the difference.

And I don't think anybody is talking about making huge arcs when you don't need to. Note this sentence above:



and what comes right after it.

Mike, having been there myself **many** times, I think Chris is actually just rephrasing your

>***get the car set up*** to go FAST in the FAST parts

and your

>3. Understeer in the slow parts is THE ENEMY

rather than referring to

>Here, do a little math:
>1. Go 10% faster in a 20 mph slow section for 10 seconds
>2. Go 10% faster in a 60 mph fast section for 10 seconds.

From my own time on course, I feel pretty certain I've had a greater number of slower runs from not going slow enough in the slow parts. I was going absolutely the fastest *I could go* in what became *my* fast parts, but by not going slow enough in the slow parts (i.e., not getting the car set up properly), I shortened my *truly* fast parts. Sometimes that shortening occurred/still occurs because I'm simply not set up to get on the throttle soon enough; sometimes the shortening occurs because I get back on the throttle early anyway (or just stay in the throttle when I should lift or brake) and it shoots me unnecessarily wide -- or occasionally completely off the pavement as I try to correct at the last second!

So, I *believe* that both of you are probably talking about doing the same things, but just thinking differently about how you get there. Though *I* say to students, "You need to go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts", I find that I generally have to stress the "slow in the slow parts" more because, at least after a few runs, the majority have more problems getting on the brakes early enough and/or having patience (PJ ) in the slow parts than they do getting on or staying in the throttle.



Chris, don't feel bad. All of us "normal" drivers have this learning curve. And, I hate to tell you, but for "normal" drivers, that curve is like following a rainbow in search of that pot of gold.



It sounds like you're almost making a sharp angle. Sharp angles in autoX are *not* your friend. If that's what you're doing, I would expect that to slow you down! "Cut the wheel hard" sounds like you're ignoring the "turn less" part of "turn early, turn less". Maybe others will chime in on this part of your post or maybe you just want to snag somebody for some course walk-through discussions.

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Mike,

Way back when I was younger than you are now I was told by some of the best autocrossers I knew that I was back "on the gas" sooner than any of the other guys I was beating. So, I obviously agree AGAIN.

Jim,

I was amazed at Jim F's line in that big fast car. I suspect he was driving the "hardly any horsepower compared to cornering ability line" rather than the best line for that particular car . . . unless he was rotating the tail of the car as he entered the corner (rather than being understeer limited by either car setup or driver skill . . . driver skill in my case). He might have been even faster if he opened up the entry to the turn.
Only experimentation would answer the question. However for "most of us" the wide entry was probably the best choice (of course that may be because that's the line I used )

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

There's lots of good info in this thread, but I want to share my own.

First, to get back to the original question, *I* think of "turn in early" as doing a very small amount of turning early in order to get some weight transferred and get the tires closer to their final slip angle that they are going to see. Great examples where you can feel this are in vehicles with very tall tires, lots of tread, and plenty of slop in the suspension (like a big worn out truck or Jeep). That's where you will "feel" the benefit of this the best, but it translates all the way down to low profile r-compounds.

Turning in fairly abruptly and too late doesn't give the car time to react and thus will usually result in a push. Turn in slowly at first and then quicker and you'll better stay near your maximum grip. Same thing in a slalom with turning back the opposite direction. Slower first, then faster as grip is available.

I think this is exactly what folks here are describing, but this is my perspective on what they mean.

Next I'd say in the more general sense of how to go faster that there are a lot of different approaches, and one thing to do is find out what's best for *you*. Here I'm not talking about driving style so much, more about prep. I started racing with Eric showing me everything he could. It was *great* as it got me relatively far up to speed relatively fast. But at some point I found that his way wasn't going to work as well for me to get even faster. He walks the course a lot of times at big events. If I do that, I find myself pre-planning way too much (I don't think he does that, but that's what I end up doing). I get things in my mind like how much I'm going to need to brake in certain spots and when I'm going to be able to get on the gas in others and it's way too easy for me to be wrong on that stuff.

So, what I now do is usually no more than three or four course walks (three on shorter courses, four on longer ones). I try to think about NOTHING but where I'm going to be looking. I try to look there the entire time I'm walking, too, to help train myself to what I'm going to be seeing as I go. To me, a huge percentage of this sport is just being able to look ahead. That's assuming, however, that you can get a lot of seat time trying to go fast in *something* so you also get car control and some amount of butt feel so you can properly react to what you feel. I think it's much harder to become a good autocrosser if your only performance driving is autocross.

One thing to note...I'm not trying to brag or anything, but at Sanford this year when I was FTPax and raw, I did *one* course walk, and 1/3 or so of it was running. That's mostly due to lack of time to do more, but runway courses that are well laid out *are* by nature pretty easy to follow. That course was well done in the cone department, but then again I think *most* TH courses are that way (I'd rate that one above TH average, but for the purposes of how many course walks you need I'd still say that most are on the "easy to follow side"). I'd say I wish I could have done one more, and maybe two and perhaps I wouldn't have had such a large differential in times from first run to last (well, my first run was fairly spectacular with offs and such, but most of that was due to ice mode with the brakes on a fairly green morning surface...plus I'm still not used to that car under all conditions).

I occasionally see people using course maps in grid to study. I think that's a bad thing to do for most. Walk the course enough to get a general idea and then practice looking ahead as you drive. If you get behind enough that your run is cooked due to an error, don't get mad. Get your car back in position as quickly as you can, even if it means giving up *more* time. That's right, get it back at whatever cost. Then finish the run PROPERLY while trying to look ahead. You'll benefit FAR more from this tactic if you have runs left than if you try to "make up time" or if you just decide to go sliding around to take out frustration. Often you'll end up surprised just how *little* that "big" mistake hurt you.

Anyway, here are the things that I think help most in autocross:

. look ahead
. turn early (think of this as having "slow" hands if you want or "always be turning" or whatever)
. have a good general idea where the course goes

Some people do benefit from more course walks and even doing "visualization" runs of the driving of the course in their heads before they run. If you think that might help you, try it. It requires more memorization of the course than you *need* just to drive it fast, but it may help you create some muscle memory before you actually run. I'm not sure it will ever help *me*, but it does help a lot of people (and perhaps I haven't found enough consistency or gotten a good enough understanding of what I'm going do from what I see yet to make it an effective tool). The hard thing to do with that is to not let it take away from your looking ahead. I find I tend to do that once I've memorized a gokart track, and it does slow you back down.

Anyway, that's enough for now, I guess. I'm not the authority, but that's the stuff that tends to work for me *occasionally*...


--Donnie

You guys have got it ALL Wrong.

Turn early is used to get the back end of the car out so that you can slide around the apex. If you're really good at this, you may not even have to use the brakes!






I'm just kidding!

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We will have to agree to disagree. I saw no benefit getting into the sweeper wide. Actually, that outside wall was put there to sucker people out on entry. When I finally did a serious course walk, my mind was set on tight entry, I was on throttle as I past the entry cone and all the way across the back. The only problem was the rear tires spinning...

Pat Salerno drilled into my head...never give up a foot of extra real estate

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Coursewalking can also bite you; I've had several people tell me that my Sanford course walked a lot slower than it actually was.

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I said earlier


There have been many very good suggestions on how and why to use more of the course real estate by turning early.

Jim said


I remember Jim telling me that numerous times during course walks. I guess that how I came to this dilemma of how much real estate to utilize and when.

Just an FYI, but the kind of turning in early I'm talking about does *not* require anything significant in terms of "extra real estate." My personal opinion is that people take line choice a bit too seriously, particularly at runway courses. Rarely do we have enough real estate available to hang yourself too much either way. If you're looking ahead enough, you'll use what you need. Seems like most of the time when I see someone pinching themselves off it isn't because they just didn't *see* the best line (or even didn't choose it), it's that they simply weren't looking ahead enough (or at all, really).

Sure, there are corners on every course we run where you could look ahead enough and still not drive the "best" line. But if you're looking ahead enough anyway then the time you lost being off the optimal line is WAY less than if you weren't looking ahead well on the whole run.


--Donnie

I'm not the expert on this by any means, but I've used "visualizations" for many years at autocrosses and track events. The term has many different connotation levels, but I use it in the most complete sense in that visualization is a synesthesia of all your sensory inputs. I prefer to call it a mental rehearsal . The point of a proper mental rehearsal is not to just memorize a course, so to speak -- it is to rehearse how you will respond throughout the entire course. For example, assume there is a very tight 180 -- you already know how the car will respond from past experience, so you can mentally rehearse a tremendous range of potential outcomes and, most importantly, how you will respond given each possibility. Rehearse turning in too early and the result of that and how you will respond. Rehearse being just over the limit understeering and how you will respond. Most importantly, rehearse the "perfect" line for your car and yourself perfectly maximizing the potential of your car. The last one is your primary rehearsal throughout the day which you refine with further input from running the course.

You can get very creative with mental rehearsals/visualizations by tuning into all of your senses (i.e. feel the g-loading in your hips against the side bolsters, hear the tires at the peak of the tractive force curve coupled with “that feel” you get through your hands on the steering wheel, hear the sound of the motor accelerating too fast as you power on at the apex while you experience your feelings of not putting power down as you expected – then rehearse how you will perfectly modulate the throttle to balance grip with power, etc.). This list goes on forever.

At the track, you can (and need to) rehearse potentially nasty situations such that if they ever occur you will have a preprogrammed response that just takes over (as opposed to panic like the typical HPDE driver). Years ago (mid 80’s) I used to live up in VA near DC, and I did every Summit Point event I could for years. I got to the point in my rehearsals that I could time my mental laps and get within 2 seconds of my typical lap time (this was back when HPDE events with the BMWCCA were timed lap events -- before insurance companies prevented such). I can still perfectly recall Summit Point (haven’t been there since 1989), the pavement details (that existed at the time) in various turns, etc. I had rehearsed recovery from various out-of-shape conditions, and I think it saved my bacon one time in a big way. On the very fast turn leading onto the main straight, I got out into the gators with my rear and got sideways to full lock correction, stayed neutral on the throttle position, paused, and then when the recovery took place that wants to snap the car back around (where many then hit the tire wall on the inside of the turn), I was fortunate enough to just perfectly manage the steering to take the yaw energy out of the chassis at the right rate of change. I used the entire road toward to the inside of the track in the process. It was all totally automatic. People on the trackside behind the wall were running for cover (it was caught on video ).

One unexpected benefit I found was in asking myself what three spots on the course I can gain the most time in order. I let that question sit for a bit and up popped my estimate of the three areas I could gain the most time along with what I needed to do differently. It's weird that you can have this information within you all the time and not even use it. The main spot was on my line into turn 5. I was using "the racing line" which typically has you closer to the left side of the track (left hand turn) than the right to block passing attempts. I opened up my line way more toward the "natural" line through there (and on a line nobody used much) and picked up more than 1/2 second since I could now apex 5 much later and create a better line into 6. This works on an autocross course too -- after a couple of runs, at the subconscious level, all good drivers know where they can pick up the most time. Accessing that info and then properly using it is the trick.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth on mental rehearsal/visualization. Set the bar high in mental rehearsals…the perfect run that maximizes the potential of the car. If you can let go of entrenched beliefs (often not easy), you’ll be able to create that event in your mind. Some people find they can’t do it – if you can't mentally rehearse the perfect run, I wager it will be impossible to actually ever have such, or anything close to it, happen. One other thought is that when rehearsing a run, sometimes you come to a spot in the course that is blank in your mind – perfect indicator that you need to work on that spot more.

I have just barely scratched the surface, but this post is too long already! Sorry for the thread high jacking guys. As you can tell, it is way to easy for me to blab on and on.

Chuck

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One point about visualization and course analysis. Donnie briefly mentioned something sort of related, but in addition to walking the course, doing a mental drive through, you also have to be careful of building a complete plan and then driving that plan every single run.

The issue that I have is that while I am getting better at walking a course and picking braking points, etc. Basically building a plan from start to finish on how you will attack the course. You have to also be able to alter your plan as the day progresses. This also can mean section by section challenging each part of your plan. So don't just say "I didn't do that right, I have to brake earlier", you also have to look at everything (including those things that seemed to work) and say "could I have been going faster here". So even if something worked to your plan see if your plan needs to be changed to make it work even better.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
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Interesting discussion. I appreciate all the input.

Many of us have commented regarding "gaining or losing time" with a different line.

How do you actually know what worked better and what did not?

Without data acquisition to measure segment times, no changes to the car or tire grip, and no change in the driver's performance, I say you really don't know.

Given the variables in a full autocross run including driver learning curve, tire heat, and pavement condition you usually cannot assume that a faster time was due to the line you used since a different line might have been even faster.

When Miles and I ran his car last year we used my GEEZ Cube to compare SEGMENT times. In some segments where our lines were very different we learned that in some cases one of us was significantly faster than the other one BUT in the next segment the order was reversed. i.e. pay me now or pay me later.

Frequently, I suspect, that one of the major benefits of the wide line approach is that it results in fewer errors (cones hit, spins, etc.) so that "really good last run" is more likely to be clean with Mike's wide line than with someone else's point and shoot line. Ask yourself how often does Mike hit a cone on his last run when he needs it to win? Compare that to how often "you" have a clean, fast last run under pressure?

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I would encourage you to drive a wider line everytime you want to run the Mustang

I do not want to slight any of our local drivers. But I have been fortunate enough to compete against and watch the very best in the country over the past 5 or 6 years. Those guys and gals have taught me a lot. That is the information I like to pass onto people that are interested.

I remember at the last Pro in Virginia, Jonathan Roberts working with me Friday night, in the rain, on the proper line. The courses were similar to the Greenville course, 90 degree finish, sweeper at the far end....never was there discussion on a wide line...but what does Jonathan know <lol>.

That was the one event where I excuted what he hammered into my head...finished 1/10th of second behind him.

Anyone who has taken a Phase 1 Evo school will tell you, wider lines are always slower The segment timers let you know that.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Jim,

Thanks for the additional input . . . especially regarding the recommended line for driving the Mustang . . . considering it would take an Alien driver (i.e. NOT me) plus the best tires plus shocks plus Bullitt/Mach 1 springs (not legal for my car in FS) to even get close to you and your car no matter what line I drove.

Sounds like I need to run a Phase 1. I wonder if there is a version which teaches old dogs new tricks.

I do have to admit that with the formula car I do tend to concentrate on tighter lines than my "natural tendency".

Dick (who always is trying to figure out how to go faster . . . or these days to even get back to where he used to be )

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

FWIW, I don't think Evo does segment times anymore for the Phase 1 school. Though, the new two-day data based school that Tim is putting on will give you that type of feedback. He's using GIS based data acquisitiion systems for the school and a multi-lap course so you can experiment with different approaches. The instructor will be able to tell you (while you are driving) that you were x.x seconds slower/faster than before. Jean just announced the school on the instructor list, I'm assuming it's on their website now, too.

Tim's talked to me a lot about the school and it sounds fantastic. He actually did some Beta testing during a recent Phase 2 school and the students loved it. I think the class size is somewhere between 8 - 14 students, more likely around 10 -12. If there are enough folks in Tarheel interested in taking the school you can contact Jean Kinser. The cost is more for the school b/c it's two-days and for use of the data acquisition, but I don't know anymore details.

Eric