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Brad, this isn't an issue of if life is fair or not. . .

its an issue of whether or not the club feels that someone with a stock car on street tires is "serious" and deserves to have a class where they compete against cars NOT on r-compounds or not. If you feel a stock street tired car make you unworthy of your own class to compete in, and that "you've gotta pay to play", thats one opinion, one which many seem to support. I think the club is much more about improving driver skill, regardless of tires or mods to your car, and as such, we should foster healthy competition between all who come, allowing cars with similar tires and mods to compete in their own classes so that the classes reflect groupings of similarly prepared cars, based on the assumptions I've spelled out.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Hell, I will bring it up, what are you guys going to do, fire me? Brice, start rallying the TIR folks to come to the next meeting. Whether the vote takes place here on the forum, at the next meeting, or at the X-mas party, I don't think it really matters. I think you are going to have about the same representation at any of those places.

I was talking to a fellow club member at lunch and he made a very good comment. The most valid point anyone has made in this entire thread is this....



You guys want to talk about abortion next?

There isn't a *right* answer here folks.

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Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

I know PAX is less fair for street tires than for the tire standard for the class, but that's a mere matter of degree.

Every single argument for the elimination of the TIR class is also equally valid for the elimination of the LAD class.

LAD dilutes competition in open, PAX isn't fair, it's not an SCCA class, yadayadayada.

But the fact remains that people really enjoy competing in LAD. Same with TIR. Why take away something people enjoy already?

Eliminate both LAD and TIR and you throw 15 people to "boost" the open classes. On average, that adds about .1 of a person to ESP, for example. Big deal. (sarcasm) I'm sure Art is going to notice the difference (sarcasm off).

This is different from starting a new class. People are already enjoying TIR and LAD, and to eliminate either or both (same arguments apply, remember?) would remove something people already enjoy. This is totally different from adding something that people might or might not enjoy. You'd be taking something away that they already have and in which they enthusiastically participate.

/devil's advocate
I have yet to see the nanny state advocates seriously insist X class be removed to force people in the corresponding Open classes to improve their driving. The Open classes should be clamoring for Carl and Donnie to come run with them, it will improve everyone's driving and give them something to aim for.
/devil's advocate off

According to the arguments put forward, the only reasonable choice is whether to eliminate X, LAD, and TIR or keep them all. The arguments are all a matter of degree and apply to all three.

Personally I think this is matter for the board. Every year they have to decide what class to run and what to keep or drop, even if only by default. They choose the format and have been empowered by the members to do so. Let them do their job. We know at least one vote against TIR was in fact a vote against Brice. The Board won't do that.

My views are clear: don't spoil the fun for TIR, LAD, and X participants. It hurts no-one to any measurable degree, and to take away something they enjoy for the supposed miniscule benefit of everyone else and "for their own good" seems excessive.

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

Have we ever been known to make life easy on you? You've got about as much chance of being fired as Wes does agreeing with Brice.

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In need of car.

Actually I wish Carl would run Open Class HS with us. In the past when I have raced agains Mary when she was dricing the neon and I could beat her from time to time, I also would see if I beat Carl, becuase it was the same car, it was always satisfying when I did that (Rare as it was back in the day). I like having the X class for say a non-member national driver who is just out there for seat time and testing and really does not care about winning on the local level. I think that all members should run in there NON-Pax class.

Ladies class is a differnt animal all toghter.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

I thought about this earlier and chose not to go that route, but since you bring it up and my cheek hasn't had my tongue in it all day...

A better analogy is gay marriage. It hurts straight marriage because if gay couples couldn't marry they'd have to marry straight people instead, so allowing gay marriage dilutes the number of straight married folks. Also, they'll fit in better if they have a conventional marriage, so it'll improve their experience of society too, and their rate of learning how to fit in will be much better.

Can't figure out how to get PAX into the analogy, though.

(To anyone who might be comprehension impaired, this is a joke. A joke with a point, but a joke nonetheless. If this fails I'm sure Godwin's Law is just around the corner.)

An aside none of you probably get, but it amuses me anyway: If this was Allakhazam, Brice would have been karma-bombed into sub-default long ago.

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

I do feel we shouldn't just single out TIR. All pax classes should be up for vote. Then no one can feel that we single out a single class. Hell, I run in X class and would vote to eliminate it.

Seriously now.... Let's just vote. Plan it for the Christmas Party. If you want to buy advertisments in the Heel and Toe to support or denounce TIR, X, LAD, etc. then do so. What anyone says on here won't change my mind, and I'm sure it won't change anyone else's. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

That is easy. Everyones appearance is based relative to the last twelve cover models of Cosmo and Mens Health. You are matched to the opposite sex based on this scale.

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RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

One problem, imo, with TIR is that the differences in potential street tires used are vastly greater than the differences in different R-compound autox tires. There is basically one tire, maybe two, that is at the top of the heap in TIR, and they are significantly faster than "typical" street tires most will have by default. Hence, the tire equation is a major factor here...perhaps more so than any other autox class.

Funny...this discussion reminds me of arguments years ago when the Phoenix Stahlflex 3011 tire came on the scene (circa 1981 or so) and absolutely dominated most other tires, and some people back then were trying to get it banned from stock classes since it was so good and most couldn't afford to buy them just for auto-x.



I think the LAD cars would be classified into separate "L" classes lined up with the normal classes, correct? At least that is the way the SCCA does it (I think).

Chuck

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

huh? sure its a factor, but if TIR is eliminated, stock cars on stock tires will have to compete against R compounds with their street tires, instead of competing against other cars on street tires, that was my whole point. Sure there is variation amongst various street tires, but the difference between regular street tires and "cheater" tires is far less than the difference between R compounds and regular street tires. . .

Frankly, ladies class has a far more legitimate reason to be eliminated if you ask me, why does sex have anything to do with your ability to drive a car? If anything, they typically weigh less (the Danica Patrick complaint) and have an advantage, which would argue all ladies should be REQUIRED to run in it to PROTECT the open classes (not in support of this, just theorizing). At least TIR actually has some performance reason to seperate themselves into a seperate "trophy pool" and "dilute the open classes" even if the PAX's are slightly off for them. Lest anyone misread this, I'm NOT saying eliminate ladies class. The real answer to the question though is nothing, sex has nothing to do with it, its there b/c its fun, and people enjoy it, so we let it live on. . .

I would feel slighted by its mere existence if I were a woman, but that goes down a hypothetical I don't think any of us want to go. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

don't make me do a "the sky is blue" post

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05 MCS

at Chris.

That was the funniest thing that has ever been posted here. I need to go search for that...

You totally missed my point with respect to competition in TIR class with a leap into a totally different issue. My point was solely with respect to the TIR class and the supposed "competition" one experiences there.

As for the ladies class discussion, well, never mind...good day!

Chuck

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Does one need to be a Lady to run Ladies class?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

That brings up the question of defining "Lady"...