THSCC Forums

agreed Wes, i don't see the personal aspect either.

no sound arguement has been made to lose or start a TIR class. but a TIR class exists, and there is a core of participants trying to win in that class. half-assed or all out but still wanting to finish ahead of someone else. what i beleive to be the point of contention here is the fact that the ST classes are veiwed as being as fiercely competitive as open class.

so we are back to the contention that those in a given class are openly supportive of each other in an attempt to make that particular class more competitive and thusly self sufficient.

by definition NOV and quite possibly TIR are none of this. these are the classes that are basically the farm teams, the minor leagues. only difference being these participants decide when to step up rather than be called up. as Martyn stated, most of us hate to be told what is best for us. i want to go back to NOV myself. alright, no i don't.

i am sure no one quit THSCC because we decided to amend year long novice class. TIR going away will no doubt bring about the same .

BTW, can we bring back the debate on YLN?

Just a tip, but you can work on turning in early on the street. You really can feel the difference out on back country roads, and it's pronounced if you drive a pick-up or SUV. Just ease that wheel in earlier than you would normally. And keep doing it until it becomes second nature. You can also practice this skill at a kart track as karts respond pretty well to turning early and little.



Sure. But at that point you aren't seriously competing anyway and thus I don't give a rats butt if you have a "competitive" place to play. I mean if you aren't serious about getting faster, why do you care if you have a place that you can "win"???



I don't believe it promotes faster driving very well. Now the question is whether that's a primary goal of the club. *I* think it should be, but that's just my own opinion. Obviously others may think it more a social club where we happen to also occasionally race or something. For me, it's more about the racing. *shrug*


--Donnie

Add up all the time you've spent standing around talking to people at an event (rallyx, autox or hpde) in the past year, plus all the time spent hanging out at pools, restaurants, meetings, etc. Then add up all the time you've spent on a course.

Yep, it's a social club.

Well, if that's the way the officers feel, then I should obviously give up the debate. That said, I think we should change the name of TIR to SOC. The next autocross can then be named "Put a SOC in it!"

I really only care enough to waste some forum time on the issue. Whether it lives or dies, I'm showing up at events to race. The fact that I get to see a lot of folks I consider friends is a very nice bonus. But maybe that's just me...


--Donnie

As I stated before,With Triads TIR class,It was about not being able to afford to be competitive in the open classes.Some of our TIR competitors were well seasoned,excellent drivers already,and they wanted to race,,Competitively,BUT for one reason or another they couldnt afford to.Some had cars that were prepared beyond the limits of traditional ST classes (a CP ford Taurus) and some were still stock vehicles that wouldnt be competitive in ST classes.These people wanted a place to play where they could be fairly competitive,so we gave it to them.If you need a reason for a TIR class,I would think that giving these short funded drivers a place to play would be reason enough.

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Anthony Hodges
DSP 72

go back and reread MY statements. People twisted it into a "me class" argument, but an impetus does INDEED exist for a TIR class even with the existence of the ST* classes, and it is for STOCK cars on STREET tires, you know, a REAL stock class, one where you can compete if you just bought a car last weekend and want to come and drive it. Somehow it got turned into "Brice is just trying to keep a class where he can trophy", but I really genuinely think that a class should exist for people who want to run their cars as they came off the showroom floor and not be competing against cars that are effectively on race rubber (I found it very ammusing that I was given the "but R compounds are DOT legal" argument in the last thread, btw).

Sure, there may be people who "prep" for TIR class, but if someone is genuinely competitive like that, spending money to make their car fit a specific set of rules, they would probably be the kind of person willing to invest in R compounds, meaning I don't think too many of these people exist. If they do, thats fine, rules are rules, but most with that competitive/prepping spirit would opt for the open classes or ST* by choice, so I don't think they are a big problem. Either way, if someone is driving a stock car on street tires, they have a lot better chance at competing with a prepped stock car on street tires than they do against a prepped car on R-compounds. R compounds make a FAR bigger difference in autocross times than any modification allowable in stock class. In addition, a ST* prepped car will also kill a stock car on street tires in most cases. This is NOT me trying to keep my "sandbox" to play in, this is me addressing a situation that is far from contrived, stock cars on stock tires, where do they play and have a chance to win (and please don't bring driver skill into the argument, its a classing argument)?

I appreciate the spirit everyone has trying to improve me as a driver, thats what the club should do, but the club shouldn't encourage spending to improve the car. I'm not accusing it of doing that by any means, but getting rid of a class where stock cars on street tires can compete (again, driver skill held equal) effectively does that, at least to some degree. Classes are there to allow cars of all autocross abilities to compete and allow the driver skill element to seperate the good from the bad, but when all the competitive drivers are on R-compounds, theres a bigger price to pay than the $20 entry fee to be competitive (and please, don't insert your "I beat an R-compound shod car on street tires" story here, classing arguments assume driver skill being equal).

If you want to call TIR SOC or NOV2 or LOSER, I don't care, call me "uncompetitive", I don't care. I still compare my times to everyone elses, I have been very proud to be moving up in the overall pax from event to event, and I have been catching some of my "measuring sticks", even though some aren't in my class. You guys may think that beating us by 5 seconds motivates us more, but it doesn't, I'm not even looking at you yet, as it would only be discouraging. I keep my eye on landmarks I can see AND pass, I'll get to you once I pass all these other guys, isn't that what they tell racecar drivers?

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Can we have a "Brice Johnson VS Wes Eargle" mudwrestling contest at the next event?

Rick, do you like movies about gladiators?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Maybe I'm just different then, b/c I look at what kind of car it is to make that determination. SCCA/THSCC classes aside, I'm also just a car guy, and if a car interests me, I'll talk to them about it. If I'm looking for advice, I'll ask someone who is in a similar layout car to mine (i.e. I usually don't ask the mid engine RWD guys for advice on how to drive a front engine, FWD car for example, but that doesn't keep me from being interested in their cars). Class shouldn't have anything to do with who you talk to, in fact, sometimes its most useful to get advice from people not in your class, particularly if they are in a different run group, so that they can ride with you or vice versa, and you can watch each others runs, I know I like to be able to watch Jeb run, and its harder to do that if I'm in then same run gorup.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

This is exactly what I did when I ran TIR back in the day. My competition was myself, seeing if I could top 10 pax in a stock car on street tires. I did once. The other times, I was always top 20 out of 100ish. It's a shame we don't have results posted from the 90s. Some of the best drivers to come through ths club competed in that class at one time.

Like I said, kill it, keep it, I really don't care. I just don't see a *problem* and I don't see eliminating this class being a solution to any percieved *problem* you guys claim to exist.

The point is someone with less talent than you could show up in an AWD car in TIR and beat you because PAX isn't designed for street tire versions of "normal" classes and as such your competition isn't "fair" anyway.



Obviously you're reading *some* of what I've said, but you're apparently *trying* to take it personally or something. I never said you should be trying to compete with someone five seconds faster than you. Even if someone nationally competitive with a fully prepped car shows up in your respective open class and does beat you by five seconds, there will still likely be someone in between you and them for you to aspire to work toward. And you can still look at overall PAX results if that helps (that doesn't go away if you leave TIR!). But right now you're playing in a class where in the past people *have* gone out and gotten "cheater tires" to win (you obviously weren't here for that, but it's happened and will probably happen again). You're playing in a class where PAX is inherently broken for properly comparing yourself anyway. So if it isn't about "me" stock where you get to trophy, why do you care? We still publish overall PAX results and thus you can use PAX to compare yourself anyway if you like.

Also, at this point if you're getting beaten by 5 seconds in your respective open class, then you don't need to worry about whether you get help from someone in a like-configured car (FWD, RWD, AWD, or whatever). It's fundamentals you need, and anyone in ANY car can help you with those.

I'm obviously very strongly on the other side of the fence from you on this issue, and I *have* given you a bit of a hard time, but please don't take it personally. I've given Wes a *lot* harder of a time on this forum, but he and I get along fine. I'd be more than happy to ride along with you at the next TH event I attend, in fact. But please don't put words like "LOSER" in my mouth, or the mouths of others here. I don't think there's anyone who is up in arms enough about this to call you that. Well, at least not until we know you better and know we can get away with it. Like right now I feel like I have full lattitude to call Wes a loser. But he knows me well enought to know I'd say it to his face.


--Donnie

I'll freely admit the problem isn't huge. Not nearly as huge as the need for a GENERATOR! Or probably even an AWNING!

I think I'll drop my membership and move to Triad. They have an awning and they're really probably closer for me anyway.


--Donnie

I'll agree that the pax indices are flawed for TIR, but its screwed up in all pax classes to some degree, this is more an extension of the PAX sucks argument than anything else, all classing/indexing structures will fall short in some areas, all we can do is try our best to make them reasonable most of the time. MOST of the time, pax time is a good indication of driver skill, it does an ok job.

For reference, if I had run HS at this last event, I'd have been a full 2 seconds behind Bernie on a 35-40 second course, thats a pretty sound ass-whipping if you ask me. And my point about who I talk to was that I try and glean information from EVERYONE, not just people in my class (in fact, I recongize that the people in TIR might not all be able to provide reasonable advice for me, the guy in the 300zx probably isn't taking the same lines through the course as I am).

I wasn't trying to put the words LOSER in anyones mouth, I was just saying you can make the class called "LOSER" class, and I'll still run in it, I'm not ashamed

And btw, I have a collapsible shelter I bring to every event Donnie, you are welcome to come chill in the shade anytime until these guys can afford an awning so we can be as cool as Triad.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Dude, as usual, YOU ARE MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT. It's not about "shade", it's about the club not even being able to approach the coolness level of Triad until it has an actual awning of its own. GET WITH THE PROGRAM OR I WILL CONTINUE TO YELL ABOUT AWNINGS. I WANT AN AWNING AND I'M NOT GOING TO STOP UNTIL...

...I get my morning caffeine. That is all.




--Donnie

I think the issue is that the official SCCA street tire classes fit (prep level) between Stock and Street Prepared. Or at levels higher than Street Prepared. So if your prep level is closer to Stock (and that is where you want to stay), then you are underprepared for the existing classes.



Brice, I think the perception is that you are focused quite a bit on yourself and what your personal goals were. And it came across as if you wanted to win and that TIR was the place for you to win. So that is why it comes across as a "me, me, me" type of thing. If I was you, I would focus on the strong points of the argument and try to remove your personal situation (and references) from the argument. Which I think you are starting to do. It also helps that you have more than yourself arguing for TIR at this point as well.



As I just mentioned above, I totally agree with you about the cars that would fit into "Stock" class. I have to honestly say however, that I have nearly zero sympathy for someone who mods a car up enough that they get bumped into *SP, *P or beyond and then whine about not being competative. That is totally an "I" class argument. I want a class just for my (insert car name here) with aftermarket Turbo with stock suspension that I run only on street tires. Its not fair that I have to run in SM or some other high prep class. waa waa waa.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.