THSCC Forums

I agree with this for the most part and don't think that promoting the club to any/everyone is the best idea. We can't afford to grow with no limits, our events can be "too big". However...often times I feel there is a perception that it isn't important what people outside the club (folks in other local clubs) think of us....and I don't agree with that at all. I could care less if folks think I am a bad guy for a decision I make, but I don't want it to reflect back on the club and make it look like THSCC is "the bad guy".

_________________
Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

Although the track program is doing well, I doubt any of the money came from that budget for the autocross/bus/trailer expenses.

What I can say is that some big money for this club comes out of sweat equity from it's members. Hence, the name Tarheel Sports Car Club. Things like Viper Autocross School and EV Challenge are bringing in a good amount of money for the club each year. Our events are funded by the people taking time and money out of their pockets to help the club. The club doesn't reimburse anyone for their time for course setup, the gas money to drive there to do it and all of the prep work that goes into preparing an autocross. If we paid minimum wage to all of those that take time to help the club (bus days, autocross planning, equipment days, scoring team scheduling, etc.), we would be hard pressed to even break even.

Thus, in my eyes (and I understand and respect that others have differing opinion) Quality is much more important than Quantity... and from the member voting on the TIR situation, it seems a good % agree with me. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

given the reasons arguing for and against TIR though, wouldn't you expect all BUT those who run TIR to vote for its elimination (b/c it would create more trophies available in open class)? As I see it, 30% voted to keep it, as compared to the only 8% participation (9/117) in the class, thats 22% of people that don't even compete in TIR that think it should stay around. Of course people will vote to do away with it if they aren't on street tires, it gives them a competitive advantage. I hope you're not implying that less than 50% support means it should be done away with altogether. I'm pretty sure similar polls could be conducted that would say we should do away with the ST* classes as well but that doesn't mean its the right thing to do, even though it WOULD increase competition in the open classes as people seem to want so badly. . .

_________________
2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Setting up a straw man argument doesn't make legitimate SCCA classes (even those in supplemental status) up for debate.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

not trying to debate the legitimacy of ST* classes (I'm all for them), just the polling method setup to question TIR's legitimacy, and trying to make sure that the results are interpretted sensibly, thats all. We all know how you feel about if Wes. . .

_________________
2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

I feel that having eleven pages of debate on the issue puts the poll in an appropriate context. Especially given the way that the very first post in that thread was worded. It isn't a butterfly ballot; I like to give the people in this club the benefit of the doubt when it comes to reading comprehension.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Actually, we developed a rallycross program because people wanted to rallycross, not because we wanted to find a way to make more money. We actually lost money on the first several events, and we lost a LOT of money on the one down south. Sometimes we still barely break even, but the people who show up are treated to the best that we could do for them, and they go home happy. So no, we're not trying to make a profit (although it is nice when we do), we're just happy making enough so that we can keep doing it.

On the autox subject, who gives a crap if a few people start crying and stop coming to events because we got rid of TIRed class? If they don't enjoy the events enough to keep coming, they're obviously not there for the right reasons.

i hate to think that i am becoming one of those guys with an opinion on everything, but here goes.

THSCC is a club manned by volunteers. it has positive cash flow due to popular events and solid fiscal management.

the advantage to positive cash flow is growth, whether that be in the form of new equipment or larger events. with growth comes decisions that must be made as to how big or how well equipped the club will become.

as in business some times a certain factor or customer or TIR class may need to be eliminated for long term growth and profit reasons. maybe the customer is a slow pay or requires more attention than the price allows. cut your lossess and benefit in the long term.

no matter how it is twisted, this club runs like a business. a successful business i might add. and the more money the club has or makes, the more the club can develop activities to appeal to the membership.

this in turn feeds growth. a viscious cycle.

if i have one observation to the negative, it seems that there is a prevailing opinion among a small core of individuals that growth & change are bad for the club.

i am sympathetic however as i understand the feeling i think. i don't want anything to mess up my playground any more than the next guy.

i do not know the reason TIR was originally created or what it used to be. what i do know however is a poll on these forums is in no way representative of the membership as a whole. i believe a poll is more about the vocal members that regulary visit the forum. of which i have also become. damn, i need a hobby.

Have you heard about autocross? I hear that it's pretty fun and exciting.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Brice keeps ignoring the argument that the TIR class scoring system, PAX, is pretty much completely INVALID for people on street tires. So while you feel like the competition is "easier" there and thus more fulfilling for you, it's simply not accurate. When you have badly inaccurate scoring in RACING then you don't HAVE racing. You might still have an enjoyable day burning up some rubber, but you haven't properly measured yourself against other competition. So to me, if we keep TIR we shouldn't give out trophies for it. Heck, if we do that let's keep X class and not give out trophies or season points for *that*, too. I'll bet both classes die, though.

Outside of that, the numbers in the class are waning. We've had instances of people using "cheater tires" in TIR. We now have 12 page threads arguing about it whenever the issue is brought up. We have a poll that currently has those who care enough to vote voting against it. I say we do one of two damned things:

1. Kill TIR.
2. Keep TIR and severely limit all discussion of the topic.

If the latter, there would be no more threads started about it unless there is some *very* new aspect that has come up to discuss. Any thread that diverges *to* the TIR class discussion thread gets locked. If anyone wants to bring it up for discussion, they must send a message directly to an officer. If the OFFICERS agree to put it back out for discussion at some point, they can. Otherwise, nip it.

I still vote for the former.


--Donnie

I'd vote to replace the O word with "members" and move to put it on the ballot. Naturally, I can't do this here, but will do it at a meeting under Robert's Rules. This discussion is officially dead; let's bring it to a vote in December using pencils and BBQ greasy fingers.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

It has nothing to do with trophies, or being able to beat the competition because of their competitive advantage, beating someone in a less prepared car is not competition. The experience that makes me feel the most satisfied is when I can beat drivers in better cars or better drivers. I find the competition helpful so even if you are driving a car that is not the "best in class" the competition in open class should stir your competitive juices. Heck, my car isn't nearly prepped for CSP, I'm just to lazy to take the air intake off so I stay legal. Spend your money on cosmetics, spend it on tires, whatever, your choice but racing of any sort is expensive and the people who take the time and money to prep their car to the limit and hone their skills will usually win.

Kill Tire class, it isn't a real class anyway and PAX sucks, especially CSP Pax

Can we try to keep this thread on topic (go back and re-read page 1)

It was split out of the other thread to keep the two apart and now this is looking like we are picking up were we left off from the now locked other thread...

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I admit I don't see the problem. People have fun in TIR and come back and have fun again. How are they hurting anyone else? They know PAX isn't totally fair and don't care. They have fun.

An extra ten drivers will not fill out the other 30 (or whatever) classes. There isn't a Quantity here to worry about. As for Quality -- the old argument that people improve faster in open -- that smacks of telling people what is good for them. I hate people telling me what's good for me, whether they're right or not.

I don't run TIR. I find R-comps a lot more fun to drive on than street tires. But the people running TIR have their reasons (like not changing tires at the event, an opinion I hear a lot from different people) and I am glad they have fun with it.

Back when I used to sail competitively I was in the handicap class, which is the same thing only a lot more unfair than PAX; we all had fun there too. We had the same arguments, too. It diluted the classes (Nope. No way was I going to race a boat I disliked. I'd have gone to another club). The handicap wasn't fair (we knew, we didn't care). It wasn't direct competition (even more so than PAX). I've heard these arguments before. This time it happens I'm on the other side of the fence -- I'm the one running the Open class, not the indexed one -- but my attitude is much the same.

I don't see any reason to take it away from the people who enjoy it.

_________________
Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

My point exactly. We're spending an awful lot of energy fixing a non-existant problem.

Diluting the competition? What competition is a low-experienced driver going to give a veteran in open class on R-compound anyway? Look at the last autocross results. Pitch Woolflock was a breath away from a trophy against 3 completely different cars in TIR. Put him in open, and he's DFL by a day and a half. How is that improving competition? But I bet Pitch will be back next time driving his ass off to beat that 3rd place BMW. And that is what it's supposed to be about.