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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Les Davis wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:
I've had discussions, classroom like, with her about how a tire works (three components of grip: deformation/mechanical keying, adhesion, ablation), what the tractive force versus slip angle curve looks like for street tires versus r-compounds, etc. Having her develop some understanding of how the tire responds near the limit on paper I think has really helped her on-course learning curve.


I nominate Chuck to teach a class to the rest of us on all that stuff. I'd sign up. :)


LOL, hey I learned a lot from a book Paul Haney wrote about tires: The Racing & High-Performance Tire (http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/). It's amazing how poorly this subject has been treated over so many years in formal engineering circles. It is an extremely complicated topic at the engineering level with precise modeling essentially non-existent. This is probably one of the last areas left in mechanical engineering that replies so much on empirical knowledge. :) Paul does 1-day seminars for a reasonable fee where he goes into even more detail than the book on his latest knowledge. For anyone with a reasonable technical background, his book is definitely worthwhile.

...speaking of which...I communicated with Paul earlier this year about him doing a seminar locally. He did one in Charlotte that was attended by the Formula SAE team from UNCC and also some local race groups. I talked to him about doing one for the NC State SAE team plus as many local racers/engineers as we could get. I wonder how many would pay ~$75 for such a one-day event? I'd be willing to sponsor the NC State group.

Chuck

Chuck, I hope he does better at paid gigs than the program he put on at nationals a couple years ago. I was glad I didn't pay to sit thu it. The info he put out was just parroted (often inaccurately) from his "sources", much of which has been disproven/cast aside, and he was unable/unwilling to field any technical questions. IMHO most people out in the field gathering the knowlege/experience for a living seldom take the time to write books, and the authors who write books for a living seldom have enough background to really understand or be an authority on the subject they write about.
I see this in my own field, most of the text books I own have the same grossly inaccurate information that has been passed from one author to another until it is accepted as fact because "it's in all the texts". :roll: :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Official Mustang Tire Corder
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Matt McGrain wrote:
scottjohnson wrote:
Edit#2: Brett did run DS last year with the JDM front end, and I didn't think anything of it at all.

Scott


Likewise. I didn't think anything of it at all except that it looked rad. Personally, I'd never protest b/c of a JDM front because I don't think it's a big deal.


Matt,
If I am not mistaken, if you do the JDM swap and delete the bumper support, thier is a significant weight reduction there. I am not trying to fuel any fire by bringing this up, but....it is what it is. I agree, it sure looks a lot better than the USDM, but rules are rules. Some people go through a lot of trouble to make sure that thier cars are legal. Yes, this is a local competition and usually no one will protest something like this, but that doesn't make it right. I know at one point last year, someone said he had a short shifter, maybe that has been swapped back for stock by now. I guess I am just one of those folks that thinks, why have rules if you aren't going to follow them. This sport is self policing, it should be ones goal to make sure thier car is legal for the class they run it in. If someone calls you on it and you truely aren't legal, who's fault is that?

I don't want to turn the NCAC into a hunt for illegal car mods, but something like a JDM front clip? It's not stock legal, and it's obvious. If someone protests it, he can't be upset about it. I don't care how many events he has run DS in. I know who Brett is, but can't say that I *know* him really. I am sure he is a nice guy and isn't trying to cheat. It's the driver's responsibility to class his/her car correctly though. Running an apple in orange class and hoping no one catches you sounds like a gamble to me.

Please don't misunderstand my post. I am not saying go protest him. I am saying he can't be upset if someone does.

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Last edited by Stephen Westerfield on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:54 pm 
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OK guys, time to sit down, put the reading glasses on, find the rules...(great, something else for the poor guys in charge to contend with!)etc.
Protesting better not be "free" and easy, or we won't know who's won the cup until 2008! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Radio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:05 pm 
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I HATE hatchbacks!

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Whoa, didn't mean to start another shit storm!

Brad Mackey wrote:
Hey, I have my radio out of the dash for repair 8)
Reading the Stock and SP rules, I can't seem to find anything other than the "comfort and convenience" rule. But that adresses "adding" stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to have this hole in the dash for SP?


I "thought" that the radio was free to remove in SP, for any car?

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 Post subject: Re: Radio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:08 pm 
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Jason Mauldin wrote:
Whoa, didn't mean to start another shit storm!

Brad Mackey wrote:
Hey, I have my radio out of the dash for repair 8)
Reading the Stock and SP rules, I can't seem to find anything other than the "comfort and convenience" rule. But that adresses "adding" stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to have this hole in the dash for SP?


I "thought" that the radio was free to remove in SP, for any car?


Note to self....make sure we have a current rule book on the bus......

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 Post subject: Re: Radio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:09 pm 
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I HATE hatchbacks!

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Location: Carolina Beach, NC
Stephen Westerfield wrote:
Jason Mauldin wrote:
Whoa, didn't mean to start another shit storm!

Brad Mackey wrote:
Hey, I have my radio out of the dash for repair 8)
Reading the Stock and SP rules, I can't seem to find anything other than the "comfort and convenience" rule. But that adresses "adding" stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to have this hole in the dash for SP?


I "thought" that the radio was free to remove in SP, for any car?


Note to self....make sure we have a current rule book on the bus......


Stephen, might be a good idea to make a phone call to the other club officers. Go ahead and take care of this before it gets posted on one of the other boards and gets out of hand.

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Last edited by Jason Mauldin on Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:13 pm 
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I HATE hatchbacks!

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Found it: 15.2.M
Quote:
M. The OE radio may be removed. The OE sound system compo-
nents, except wiring, may be removed. Any visible holes which
result from the removal of such equipment must be covered.


So, it's allowed in *SP. NOT STOCK CLASSES.

I suppose tape can be used to cover the hole?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:47 pm 
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Tire Nerd
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Chuck Frank wrote:
Chuck, I hope he does better at paid gigs than the program he put on at nationals a couple years ago. I was glad I didn't pay to sit thu it. The info he put out was just parroted (often inaccurately) from his "sources", much of which has been disproven/cast aside, and he was unable/unwilling to field any technical questions. IMHO most people out in the field gathering the knowlege/experience for a living seldom take the time to write books, and the authors who write books for a living seldom have enough background to really understand or be an authority on the subject they write about.
I see this in my own field, most of the text books I own have the same grossly inaccurate information that has been passed from one author to another until it is accepted as fact because "it's in all the texts". :roll: :wink:


Wow, that's some good input! I was envisioning a seminar where he goes over in detail the three modes of tire "traction" and also covers the whole subject of the contact patch (i.e. distribution of load/slip over the patch as a function slip angle, tire width, load, pressure, sidewall spring rate, tread temperature, etc.)...stuff like that. He covers some of this in his book and does an acceptable job of starting to cover these topics. However, I've got a great thirst for more detail as always, especially transient behavior which he doesn't cover at all. Perhaps I've made a poor assumption that he knows more than he published in his book. :? I guess it makes a lot of sense to talk with the UNCC professor about what, if anything, they got out of the seminar. Oh well, it sounded like a good idea anyway. :oops:

Re authors...I agree 100%. In my field of the past 15+ years (financial trading), there exists, by far, the largest bunch of crap published of any other field. Where money is directly concerned, the masses will fall for just about anything. :wink: Unreal. Heck, even vaunted Nobel Laureate's at Long Term Capital Management created the most stupid trading system imaginable (one that ignored outliers and actually increased leverage more and more in an outlier situation!) and lost many billions of dollars back in 1998 (all the money they had in their fund and a lot more) and forced the Federal Reserve to step in to stabilize things in the world's markets -- from darling of Wall Street to almost imploding the world's bond markets in less than 6 months. Pretty good accomplishment after winning a Nobel prize. :D

Chuck

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:54 pm 
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Tire Nerd
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Matt McGrain wrote:
scottjohnson wrote:
Edit#2: Brett did run DS last year with the JDM front end, and I didn't think anything of it at all.

Scott


Likewise. I didn't think anything of it at all except that it looked rad. Personally, I'd never protest b/c of a JDM front because I don't think it's a big deal.

On a side note, my '97 is bone stock right down to the shocks :oops: and the original brake pads. I'm just waiting for someone to talk some sense into me and convince me that those blingy adjustable Koni thing-a-ma-jigs with make the aaaRRRRR fastaR!

Lastly, we're in for a helluva battle in DS and it's going to be great! We've got a few R's, a bimmer, and a WRX. All we need is an IS 300 to play.


Personally, if someone knows their car is illegal for a given class and expects to put the burden on others to oust him/her from that class, they should bear some sort of penalty in the future. It just isn't right to knowingly make illegal modifications and then run the car no matter how minor they are to you. This one seems obviously illegal. Sorry, I just don't get it. Rules are rules. What am I missing here?

Chuck

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:57 pm 
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Jason Mauldin wrote:
Found it: 15.2.M
Quote:
M. The OE radio may be removed. The OE sound system compo-
nents, except wiring, may be removed. Any visible holes which
result from the removal of such equipment must be covered.


So, it's allowed in *SP. NOT STOCK CLASSES.

I suppose tape can be used to cover the hole?


Yep. Found it. Top of the page. You da man, Jason!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:01 pm 
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As far as "rules Nazis" go, I'll be bringing along my 1995 Mazda Miata Factory Service Manual. You can go over my car all you want; it is absolutely legal, even down to the correct number of fasteners on the engine undertray.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Just a little tidbit about Bret's Type R. The JDM front end was already on the car when he bought it. He didn't knowingly modify the car illegally after the fact. He originally ran the car in STX until he could find a stock air intake to replace the cold air unit that was on the car when he bought it. He knew he would never take the car to Nationals and the chance someone would protest the front end locally was extremely slim.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:53 pm 
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Justin Barbry wrote:
Just a little tidbit about Bret's Type R. The JDM front end was already on the car when he bought it. He didn't knowingly modify the car illegally after the fact. He originally ran the car in STX until he could find a stock air intake to replace the cold air unit that was on the car when he bought it. He knew he would never take the car to Nationals and the chance someone would protest the front end locally was extremely slim.


It's no biggie! Character speaks louder than web forums, so anyone that meets Bret will instantly know he's a stand-up guy. I showed up at a THCC event at the Dixie Fairgrounds (?) and told him that I had killed my Hoosiers and was on some cheapie Yoko's and racing STX for the fun of it. He offered to let me co-drive his car on new R-comps just to be nice and have someone to race with.

Keep in mind this was after only racing in DS with him twice ever.

Justin: do you still have that blue flatland bike? :thumbsup:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:17 am 
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The McGeorge Spyder ran a lot of events with duct tape on the radio hole and the holes in the plastic pieces that were left when the roll bar was removed. Nobody ever said a thing.

I replaced the tape on the radio hole with a radio install kit from Crutchfield with a map pocket insert from my Subaru instead of a radio. I then put my DL-1 data logger in there. It's light, covers the hole, and gives me a place to put the DL-1 that's easy to get to.

I found a free source for used replacements for all my other plastics that are screwed and should get those in Topeka next week. I don't have to replace them, but I'm going to for copmleteness and looks sake.

I'm sure there are a lot of people serious about scrutinizing, but I'll be surprised if there's one signifcant protest filed.


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:03 am 
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Gwen Baake wrote:
OK guys, time to sit down, put the reading glasses on, find the rules...(great, something else for the poor guys in charge to contend with!)etc.
Protesting better not be "free" and easy, or we won't know who's won the cup until 2008! :roll:


Remember -- protests need to be filed before trophies. I haven't read the rules in a while, but I hope that there is some time allowance or that protests need to actually be filed before actual competition is over.

I don't plan to file any weenie protests personally, unless THSCC comes under protest attack to keep us from winning the cup. Then it will be ON.

Rules are fun :) What they are, why and how they are written, and how seriously they are taken are a very interesting part of this sport.

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