THSCC Forums

It's racing. It costs money to win. If you don't want to spend money, you don't *really* want to win bad enough. Autocross is already insanely cheap as far as motorsports go, and in fact, if you do the right driving schools you really *don't* need to spend much money to win at the local level in a given class. There are a lot of TH's that prove that every race weekend, in fact.

TIR hurts open class participation, period. All to give a few more trophies out to people who don't want to compete against people running race tires. I don't see the point, personally.


--Donnie, trying to beat the lock

so, the ST* classes were formed to "reach out" to the tuner community. We're willing to reach out to the tuner community, but screw the general public huh? Those people who are so outlandishly thinking of running their stock cars on street tires should suck it up or pay the price to be competitive. . .

its not really a money arguement. At its core, deciding what classes exist comes down to what types of cars show up and a way to put them all on a level playing field so that it is a contest of driver skill. You are ingoring a huge part of the population if you don't provide an outlet for stock cars on street tires, and since stock class doesn't mean stock, where else can they go and compete on a level playing field?

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

step away from the keyboard.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Oh Bother... read this thread (all 28 pages)... You have a friend in Illionis..

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/182212.aspx

THSCC did not create the ST* the are an SCCA creation. How is the general public screwed, anyone running in stock has to run on a DOT Street Legal tire.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

oh COME ON!

I'm sure you drove home on your victoracers through that rain storm didn't you

don't lean on the "R-compounds are DOT legal" crutch, we all know that R-compounds are very different than street tires. . .

and once more, WHO created the class is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it should exist in THSCC competition. More open for debate are the reasons the classes were created, and I would argue there was a good reason THSCC created the TIR class.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Actually its Hoosiers... but I have driven Victor Racers in all out thunder storm (2000 Pro Solo) and With Tread, (like any tire) they did just fine.

Tires are a wear Item, if you were to ban R comps, people would just start Shaving Street Tires like they already do in ST* class's... in fact maybe I will get a set of Shave Competitive ST* tires and run TIR class... it would be legal.....

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Novice class is designed to handle 'the general public' - these are the folks that want to try it out before deciding whether to commit. Just like in any other competitive activity you choose to spend your time doing, you can expect that some financial commitment is required to get the appropriate equipment, or else you can expect to be less competitive.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

and I never said you should ban r compounds, but don't try and tell me they are just like any other DOT legal tire (I'm not stupid).

If you want to run TIR, as long as you meet the requirements, thats fine, I'm sure you'd be quite competitive given your considerable skill, you'd probably win. TIR exists though for those who are less hardcore in many ways. It doesn't mean that the hardcore CAN'T run there, they just usually don't. You are welcome to though, and I wouldn't have any problem with it and I'm sure nobody else would.

My only point is that you shouldn't get rid of the class b/c it makes autocross more "exclusive", meaning someone in a stock car on stock tires can't really compete. I was always under the impression that this was an embracing, encouraging sport. Why turn away those who simply want to run what they have by rendering them non-competitive (or less competitive at least)?

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

I think everyone agrees that at the time THSCC creasted the TIR class, there were good reasons for it. The argument is whether those reasons are still as good now as they were then. Clearly, a lot of people feel the ST* classes have addressed at least some of those good reasons.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Brice, it seems like you may be taking this discussion as an attack at you. This discussion happens on a routine basis, so don't take it personally (if you are).

If there were no TIR class when you started, where would you run, and would it keep you from coming back?

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In need of car.

they addressed a LOT of those reasons, but not the stock car on stock tires people, as any ST* car will be far better prepped than a stock car, and a prepped "stock" car will also be far better prepped. If you feel those people aren't worth including or shouldn't be on a level playing field b/c they haven't "paid to commit", so be it, but I've expressed my opinion on the matter that all should be included and be allowed to run on a level playing field. Any further arguing isn't getting me anywhere but frustrated and angry and insulted, not to mention, does anyone even car what I think anyways? I've pointed out the area that the ST* classes DON'T address, I happen to fall into that category myself. Do what you guys want though, I'll be there, non-competitive or not, its just that a question was asked, I answered it with what I thought, and apparently people don't like my opinion. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Keith his right on with what we should really be talking about. A couple of years ago when this came up, I was against now, I am not so much, why? At the time there were on adverage 25 people competing in the TIR class. Now there are much less peope in the class which leads me to believe that TIR has run it's course.

Some people are not going to be competitve no matter what class they run in. Alan, who runs the covair probably has not hope of being competetive, but I know he would be out there weather or not there was TIR class because he enjoy's doing autocrossing. If eliminating Tire would increase open class participation, and encourage people to try and be more competitve this is a good thing. If we could loose people because the would not come out to events at all becuase of TIR class that would be bad, but Honestly I doubt that would be the case. .

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

That being said, I am putting my name in the hat for Club President for 2007, running on the platform, 'I will eliminate TIR class'

As a co-winner in a TIR class in 2000 with Scott Johnson, I agree that TIR has run it's course. ST* has addressed 90% of the cars for a TIR based class. Sure it allows mods, but so does TIR currently.

My issue with TIR is two fold:

1) Stock Class dilution

2) Pax is completely arbitrary, for it's designed for cars prepped to the maximum and compiled from National level results, yet outside of ST*, the top people are on race tires. Thus, the PAX numbers don't work.

Like Matt and others, I think TIR hindered my progression towards getting faster quicker. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

No one is arguing the validity of your specific reason, it is valid. What's questionable is whether 'stock cars on stock tires' alone is reason enough to continue TIR class.

Similarly, I have my own reasons for running in X class- I happen to own two cars that I like to autocross, and X class allows me to run either car. If there was a proposal to do away with X class, I would argue, just like you are, to protect my best interest. However, I wouldn't expect my opinion alone to outweigh a larger group of people who voiced opinions against mine. If such a large group of the population wants to run their stock car on street tires, as you keep saying, why aren't they chiming in to support their/your cause?

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Cole lives in Ozark, Alabama. He owns a video store. His daughter Brandy goes to Huntingdon College and plays tennis for them. Pic here:

Click Here

His wife rides horses and they are very expensive . He is afraid of hurting his back and his wallet, so he wants stock street tire. He had an Altima 3.5 but knows even in stock street tire it would suck, so he bought and RX-8 for him and a '99 Miata for his 16 year old son.

I have heard it all from this idiot and yet he remains persistent. If Stock Street Tire becomes a National Level class, then we should have it. Othewise, ban it. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S