THSCC Forums

That would be interesting. Could we apply the same theory to Pro? Leave pro class to those expereinced drivers that come out once or twice a year and do not want to mess up class points.

I said it is "interesting".

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I concur, it is interesting.

THe whole point of TIRE was to be low stress and fun, if there are trophies, then there is a winner and by nature, you add competition...

Not to mention, I haul the trophies around and would not mind hauling fewer of them!

Scott

As someone who runs in TIR this sounds ok to me. I enjoy seeing how I stack up against the others in the class to see if I'm improving, but trophies and season points don't really matter to me.

_________________
2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

Sounds good to me on both points. It was nice to have the PRO class when I went up to VMSC so I wouldn't mess with their STS Open class results, and it would be nice to keep it for the same reason here. I'm sure a few local guys would want to stay in PRO to have the level of direct competition they're up against remain high, though.

In "Pro" class I'm there for the competition, but we would still have the "Top Gun" year end trophy which should *theoretically* (yes I know kevin ) be the "season champ" of "Pro" class so that would be fine with me too....

I might be biased, but here is another "aye" vote for MY proposal

-Tom

Going a step further...

If there are no trophies in TIR or PRO, there is no reason for the PAX. And if TIR is "just for fun", ie people don't care, and if "PRO" is just for people who are getting seat time and don't want to disturb championships ...

Let's just combine TIR and PRO, eliminate the PAX to make it a raw-only class, and call it "X".

Then there doesn't even need to be any rules or policing of classes at registration. And all it takes is 2 long pieces of tape to mark the class.

X class is for anyone who doesn't care about trophies or season points.

People truly interested in PAX battles can see them on the final PAX results from the event.

Hmmmm....

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

So how about we just have the registration process set up so that anybody who's not a member (and therefore not eligible for season points) is automatically entered into X class, and those who are members are split up into the regular Open classes?



Oops - hit submit prematurely; I was going to say that this would be the perfect plan to keep up our reputation as elitists.

I still think the best idea yet is to leave things alone and motivate *some* of the TIRE folks to open. However, it is clear that for reasons unknown to myself and other TIRE “competitors” (yes, we actually competed against each other, even if it was at our own, low level) that this initiative will not stop until something is changed.

Of all the wild ideas proposed, Tom’s idea is the only idea that holds water. I still make the suggestion for handing out trophies after the events. For the $20 they pay and the hard work, they've earned it. The season points could probably go away and not hurt any feelings.

So after three threads, I still don’t know what the deal is. Some of us TIRE folks have already committed to moving to open class, but the push still exists to change things. So I ask the single most involved person in these arguments, what’s the deal Jim? Why is whatever “it” is such a big, secret deal?

Another thing folks have sporadically mentioned are things like driver skill, car preparation, and the difference in tires. Lots of variables are in each of those categories. Comparing Mike Whitney to ANY of us in street tire (not including night events of course) is ridiculous, regardless of the tire he’s on. He’s driving a well-prepped car and he’s got the skill and experience to pilot his car very effectively while we’re still climbing the ladder he stepped off quite some time ago. Mike… as a safety precaution, turn the valve and let some air out, Kendra has mentioned that your head may grow at times J

So far, other than Kevin’s post of GRM’s testing tires, everyone else is stating opinions. What I do know is that a few times this year, some of my competitors came out and placed high or won TIRE class driving on tires other than those amazing Azenies. Maybe I should have taken a look at their car. I mean, if I’m on Azenies and they aren’t, then they must be cheating for sure. Right?

I’ve been in TIRE for two years and placed in the top five at the end of the year both years. If you look at how I started the year out and keep in mind that I was selling the ITR, I wasn’t looking to be very competitive, nor did I expect to. Did I do this for these coveted trophies? No, I stayed in TIRE because that’s where all my friends raced and that’s where I felt I best fit.

Now, another issue I have with all of this is that I for one feel fingers are being pointed at me, especially from Jim. If I’m wrong, then I apologize. Either way, if someone has issues with me, just tell me.

phil

I have issues with you, Phil.

(j/k)

Whoa... Lets stop the boat here for a minute... Seems we've turned a little snowball into an avalanche!

This all started as a discussion about ringer tires in TIRE class, and now we've got people all excited about re-vamping the entire class structure at the THSCC. [Edit: substituted THSCC for a misplaced SCCA]

Myself, I *like* the PAX classes. It's a way for me, in my very affordable car, to compete with folks in other cars and other classes.

Next thing you know, I'll be gridding with cars in my class (separate thread), only seeing drivers in my class, and I will have to prep my car to a specific set of rules just so I can socialize with my friends on the weekends. Oh, gee, what fun.

We've already determined that some of us actually *enjoy* the competition. It's also pretty obvious that many of us don't have the schedule or resources that allow us to run national events (which are often poorly subscribed in many classes until Topeka itself). That means that some of us enjoy the local competition, particularly when we get to go head to head with national competitors. Basically we've eliminted that competition with these new proposals. I know people that have bought "ringer" cars just to win their local PAX class (no one around here that I'm aware of).

If we eliminate street tire and Pro class as trophy classes, I bet I could (with 85-95% accuracy) sit down and tell you all the champions for next year. No point in even running for points if it is that predictable!

I've noticed a theme here though. It seems all the proponents of "RAW" only happen to have very fast cars. Gee, can I serve up another platter of "self" for every one.

I'm probably guilty too, I like PAX, but I have a stock car where it's easier to compete because I don't need to spend as much as a SP P or mod car. Of course, I have a *horrible* car for it's class, but I *still* like PAX.

There is another solution to the undersubscribed classes, and that's called "bigger events." But no one wants that either.

Scott

PS: It's early morning and I haven't had my coffee yet, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Please don't flatter yourself. You are not being singled out for anything.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Scott - I've gotta jump back in here...


Just so I'm clear, do you want TIR to be competitive or for fun - seems like you've posted both ways on this thread.



??? That's what most of the club does today and it doesn't seem to interfere with people's ability to socialize across classes! Our run structure allows lots of opportunity for socializing, across classes that even run in different run groups!



Sooooo, the answer is to splinter the classes into subgroups? Or somehow level the playing field beyond the many, many open classes? Top car/drivers will emerge in ANY format and you'll often be able to predict them. I thought that was the nature of this sport or any sport.



I think there are themes emerging on either side of the discussion.

I think the real proposal was to not to make TIR a RAW class - that came in later. The RAW class, as I understood it, is just a permutation of a way for people to run for fun - and to encourage people to move back to open classes. Either way, the proposal was a way to move the competition to open and fun to TIR.

42% of our club runs in PAX classes - to me, that is the problem. Our PAX classes are larger than many entire clubs. I truly believe it's not in the best interest of long-term competition to have that many people using PAX as an official factor in determining winners.

I have been vocal about this point but I don't see how it self-serving as it has NO impact on my class or my personal competitive goals. I'd also defend some of the other people I've heard - it's not going to help or hurt them so why is it self-serving?

I see TIRE in it's current form as a competitive and fun class. Give it a try if you don't believe me.

So what if 42% of the drivers run in PAX classes? Honestly, it doesn't much matter where we put the novices, but I bet for many, their most coveted trophy is the one they won at that first autocross...

People CHOOSE to run tire class, I think our members are voting with their actions...

Could I support a combined TIRE and NOV class ("Fun" class), yes (but I think we would reduce the level of competition in the club). Do I want to see it? Nope, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'm still with Phil on this one. I think the current system isn't broken. We are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. If there is indeed a problem, we could fix it with peer pressure (as suggested many times over), rather than rule changes.

Here's my rules:

1) Any changes should not make it harder to run an event.
2) Changes should not be made for the 2004 season in 2004 (and that is where this is headed).
3) Changes should only be made in the interest of:
a) the membership at large
b) to make our events more fun
c) to make our events better

Of course all of those are very subjective.

Phil W and Jim P.- How will elimination of all PAX classes change the event for you? Does it add more competition in your class? Does it change your routine any? I know it will mean that Jim *will* win a bunch of first place trophies in open class. Does it make *any* classes more competitive (not deeper, more competitive).

Same question to everyone else: Will any of these proposals make our events better for you (vs working within the current system). If so, how, if not, why not?

We seem to be moving in the direction of closer alignment with SCCA national rules, yet none of us seems to actually want our club to be an SCCA club (do we?). Wasn't it just 2 or 3 years ago that THSCC convinced the NCAC to add PAX classes (Tire and Pro). Who was at the meeting where they were added into the NCAC classing (and was THSCC the motivator?). Have things changed that much in the past 3 years?

Parting words...

I've read all of the posts, I've seen all of the proposals and I haven't seen any that *I* think are better than the current system (some re different, but not better). If people want to see a smaller TIR class then they should just make sure the people running tire think that it really is a JV class and that they are "lesser" drivers (that peer pressure thing again). I played JV football back in Jr. High School, and guess what, I was proud of every win, every tackle, every good block , etc. It didn't matter to me that I was on the JV team. Yeah, it was an ego boost, it feels good to win...(and I would never have been good enough for Varsity)

I've wasted too much time on this topic already, so I'm signing out. As it stands now, if it goes to an open vote, I'll vote for the status quo, and if it's an officers decision, I'll vote for the status quo. Everyone will get a ballot in the mail shortly that will let them decide if they want me voting as an officer. I suggest you don't let this chance of democracy pass you by.

Scott

You have no clue as to what you talking about. How about coming to VMP on Sunday and see for yourself. The other ES competitors did not want me to move to Pro. They wanted to compete with me directly. Guess what, I got beat 2-3 weeks ago by a Miata. The driver credited being able to compete against me head-to-head. This weekend I will try and atone for the defeat against 5 other drivers gunning for me in ES.

What made me a good driver in the start was competing and getting beat by Ron Spencer. I remember the first time I beat Ron. I was on cloud-9.

As it stands right now, you can pick the winners for next year classes as is without changing Pro and Tir. There won't be any surprises. The only class battles may be DSP/GS/CSP. And those battles will be between old competitors in the classes. See any new blood coming up through the ranks? Nope.



On the eve of JFK's death, his words will serve an end to my input

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Scott, Phil, and everyone else -

Don't get too worried about what this discussion "looks like". Truth is, there is obviously not enough consensus to drive a change, and I seriously doubt there will be any rule changes in 2004.

We have been having this discussion for fun, and to get people to think. Mission accomplished. If some people agree with one side and bail out of TIR for Open, great. If some people decide to stay in TIR and it becomes a reasonable class again with tight competition where everyone knows each other, great!

Some day, the officers may decice together to make a change. We may or may not call a vote. We DO _ALWAYS_ act in the best interest of the club, and in the future of the club. As you can see here, not all of the officers agree something needs to be done.

Thus, nothing will be done!

If it came to a vote, I would be against changing any TIR rules in 2004 because of these points.

Just thought y'all would like to know. This sounds like a good topic for the last president's column, doesnt it? (not tires, but how decisions are made)

Thanks for the fun discussion everyone

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1