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They were counted. I considered those to be impacted classes, so the 39% includes them.

My bad...I misunderstood.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Rather than adding more rules, and the hassles of enforcing them (anyone proposing that we have an exclusion list is automatically volunteered to work registration so they can ask EVERY tire class competitor what tires they are on), why not get back to my original "peer pressure" theory.

I considered 3 choices this past season:

1) Run against people in TIRE class (Falkens)
2) Run open class on street tires (Falkens)
3) Run Pro class on expensive race tires.

I didn't feel right with #1 for a variety of reasons, my problem was, all the DS people were actually planning on running TIRE class (Mark, Dan, Chris), so I was stuck in a class of 2, Sally and myself, and I wanted more competition.

I sat down emailed all the potential DS players at the time, and we made a "gentlemans" agreement to run street tires in stock class. If people came out with stickies, we would just have to deal with it. We ended up having a pretty deep class for many events, and had a lot of fun.

With only a few exceptions, we also would have been *every* trophy spot in street tire class (and that would have been a problem).

So, rather than fuss over exclusion lists, and rule changes, why don't the people with a problem just excercise a little peer pressure and fix it that way? If you see someone who was in street tire class this season that you really think shouldn't be there, then recruit them to open class. It worked for me, and I'm no sweet talker!

Of course, when you go to those 2 or 3 AS drivers and say "Hey, come to open class where you will have more fun with a class of 3 rather than a class of 30" you might find that it's a tough sell! It's an even tougher sell when many of them are not regulars and the one that is has the prospects of being bumped to street prepared on a regular basis.

Scott

The analysis of this can be kind of odd, not all classes were represented in open (or tire) at every event, so how do you judge the real impact without skewing the numbers high or low, but here is a general idea of how they look (I'd be happy to email anyone a bunch of excel sheets if they want them).

First analysis: Impact of tire class in general (pretend it didn't exist).

Stock classes are impacted the most:

AS: No one ran it the first half of the season, by the last event there were 4 people running AST, but no one in open. Those 4 would probably do well to move together.

BS: We averaged roughly 3 cars in BST (and always had an open class). For event #6 the combined class would have been 10 cars deep, but the top 3 or 4 would have been the same 3 or 4 (Les, Robert, Tom). THe remainder would have been fighter for 4th or 5th. In open class these guys *knew* they wouldn't stand a chance, in tire class the prospects are better.

CS: Similar to BS.

DS: DS had as many as 10 people in open class (making it the second largest class at any event outside of TIRE or Nov, behind CSP). Bringing in the tire people would have meant more back markers.

ES: See B, C, DS.

FS: FS needed help, it would have benefited by the average of 1 additional driver

GS: GS would have doubled in size, adding about 8 drivers per event. Often more GS people were in tire class than in open class. *But* GS was already healthy with good competition and two of the clubs best drivers in it, it also featured one of the best prepped cars. It also happens that several GS people were winning on street tires in street tire class... I'm not sure where this one goes. There are unhappy people on either side.

HS: Small participation in open and tire class, I think open class could use the boost that the tire cars provide.

Everything else:

CSP is the only one that sees any real changes, with the addition of 3 cars to the healthiest class we have.

SM and SM2 also gain a few cars (1 and 2 respectively), but those were also healthy classes.

Next analysis:

If we *knew* who had the "excludable" tires, we could run it, but that is hard to figure. It's mostly the people in the top few spots because they are the most removed from novice.

If we just move the people on the potential exclusion list, my theory is we are going to displace about 5 to 8 drivers. One is in HS, 4 are in GS, one is in AS. Based on that there is very little impact on open class (this is conjecture).

So, my argument is still against an exclusion list because it will create work and have a minimal impact on open class.

If we want to start a different thread on the existence of TIRE class alltogether, we can, but in this case, I don't think a tire exclusion list will do anything but cause create headaches.

My analysis does lend some credence to changing the name to "street tire stock" though (this is a somewhat troubling observation, *also* for a different thread).

[rant]
While we are excluding tires, maybe we should also consider exclusing high priced shocks, and out of manufacturer spec alignments from stock class, and rewrite the rest of the rulebook while we are at it. Maybe use the NASA-X rules where a CSP MR2 spyder gets classed with a bone stock SVT Contour on street tires.
[/rant]

Scott

I think I got you here.

We already have to do this - a Race tire is currently any tire with TW less than 140. There is nothing about a "Race Tire" that distinguishes itself from a regular tire except treadwear (and sometimes a warning on the side). OK - I guess I can see that there will be a little more work, but if the rule is announced, most people will class themselves accordingly.

There was once an obvious gap in performance, but the distinction is already getting blurry, and soon there will not be a real distinction. What happens when someone comes out with a cheap uber-street tire that is faster than a race tire? Won't everyone just run TIR then?

That's not what we want, and we're going to have to make this rule sooner or later.

Yes, I keep repeating myself

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Tell me what big problem those rules would fix, and we'll consider it!

(Can someone who took Debate in HS/college tell me what kind of fallacy Scott's rant is? I read something about that once - there is a term for dragging a non-relevant example to try to illustrate a point??)

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

How right you are! My head was hurting when I stopped looking at the numbers last nite! FYI..I did part of my analysis by looking at the number of "class occurances" that had a TIR class. It varied per event by 1 or 2. Doing it that way makes getting your arms around it a little easier.

As I said a couple of posts ago, the issue of open class dilution is not just one of TIR. We really need to look at PRO and NOVICE at the same time and decide, as a club, if we want to continue supporting multi-tier racing based on driver skill.

If the answer is YES, then we need to clarify TIR as a stepping stone and put the appropriate rules around it (as well as tighten up the purpose of Novice and PRO).

If the answer is NO, then we need to adjust TIR so it's purpose is clearly aimed at the original TIR purpose. PRO and NOVICE would be impacted accordingly.

I think my opionions are clear on the subject, but I would like to hear some additional thoughts from others specifically about the value of having 4 skill-based classes ("JV" as an earlier post called it). Leave the tire brand argument out for now - I'm interested what people think at the fundamental level.

They are fine street tires as long as it doesn't rain Karl. Azenis are borderline dangerous in the wet. With only one longitudinal groove in the tire, water doesn't have any where to go and hydroplaning is VERY easy. That is unless you're Superman like Kevin Allen who says they are fine wet or dry.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Open up a new topic on the skill-level classes as opposed to car classes. Reading through the many posts on concerning the TIR exclusion proposal, there is an underlying thread about skill-level classes...JV class. That is an interesting observation.

I believe the TIR exclusion proposal is one small step in an attempt to remedy the Open class issue. It is not a broad sweeping change like eliminating TIR altogether. The proposal would impact only those that actually want to go faster. On occasion there will be a novice that will not have an opportunity to run in TIR. But that is probably an acceptable hiccup. Anyone know of any novice that would have been impacted by a tire exclusion rule for TIR?

As for the policing of the rule, it is no different than any other rule enforcement in autocross. It is up to the competitors, not the sanctioning body. We all know that and that should not used as a scare tactic.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

A few comments/questions from an "old timer" who has seen all this numerous times in numerous places in almost three decades of autocrossing.

First of all, there never has been and never will be a solution to the "budget issue" which tires are a big part of. No matter what we do we cannot solve the tire cost issue for everyone, no matter what we do with tire rules (or any other rule that is viable for autocrossing). We can impact it locally to some degree but we cannot "solve" it.

Therefore, the real issue in my mind is whether the club wants a "serious" indexed class. By serious I mean one with year end trophies, bragging rights, etc. I guess that is what we have right now but it appears that was not the original intent. Deciding what "we" really want the PAX class(es) to be is the first step. Once this decision is made, the preparation rules choices may be easier to make.

Personally, indexed classes are "just for info" just like amateur golf handicaps. The real competition is "heads up". An exception may be the Pro Solo Ladies classes due to participation issues. I'll let Donna Frank and Chris Peterson, etc. comment on this since I'm not qualified.

Note that I've seen various attempts in three decades to have classes for the potential newbies. All ended up being dominated by very fast existing autocrossers. Ditto for "showroom stock road racing".

What I've personally always done is identify the cars/drivers I "should" beat due to tires/prep level/talent, etc. and then try to beat them!

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I'm not so sure anything needs to change, but if asked to give a suggestion for possible changes that might address some of the concerns listed above here's my ideas.


Class 1 (novice/all-season street tires only/paxed class/changing tires at event discouraged)

Class 2 (intermediate/any street tire w/TW>140/paxed class/feel free to change tires if you really want to)

Class 3 (call it open or pro/R compund tires/ paxed class)


Award trophys to top 5-10 places in each of three paxed classes, forget giving trophys to every individual class. The club could save money on wood and use it for other things, perhaps helping to afford more expensive, nicer sites.

Maybe even have a Class 4 or RAW CLASS, No Pax No Rules No Whining
Only give one trophy, 1st place

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'91 Miata STS2 project
'96 328i Sport Pkg

From the THSCC website:



The wording here suggests that the classes are already stratified based on experience; perhaps TIR has evolved into more than what it was originally intended for simply because tire technology has dramatically improved since the 80s (or whenever TIR was introduced) and into a JV type experience. Although some members appear to exploit this ...

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

One (hopefully) final comment about PAX based classes.

PAX involves a huge amount of "excess precision". The index really shouldn't be used by anyone for any significant bragging rights, even at the sites primarily used to develop the numbers. All it is really good for in most areas is letting us know that "maybe" we did better/worse than someone else in another class. I just don't see all this emphasis on winning a indexed class (other than at the top levels such as the Pro Solo Ladies classes where the indicies are tailored much more precisely and the drivers and cars are typically the best in the country as is proven by how they do in the Nationals).

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Sorry I don't buy that Pushing/Forcing people out of tire will Fix open? So if we exclude Aziens and the such we are going to force people strait out of noviec and into Open too? If that had happened to me when I was a novice I proably would have looked at the times between me and Matt N. and quit autocrossing cause I would have tought at the time that I had no chance of ever winning, at least in street tire I felt like there was a chance that I could win the class. So we are going to break the Tire class to fix the open class? Seems like we talked about this last year when Jim Brought it up... hmm I see a pattern...
Once you start down the exclusion path you are going to keep having to add tires to it, I run on Sumitomo HTR200's and to be honest with you they are pretty damn good street tires. I don't have a problem with people change tires at an autocross, Heck people where doing that when I joined the club in 98 and there was not a tire to have. The funny thing is for a lot of people Falkens and such are cheaper than both R compond tires for the car and OEM tires, so know where going to pentalize people for being thrifty... still makes no sense to me... but heck I am used to people not listening to me in this group so I am sure this will fall on deaf ears.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

David,

FYI when I started autocrossing I showed up at events in Northern California (San Francisco). At the time that area was one of a few hot beds of top level autocrossing in the United States. I started with a Mustang on street tires and got creamed by the guys on "real slicks" in an almost stock class. Then I got a Datsun Z and got creamed again. Instead of running away, I learned how to drive and bought the right tires for the class(es) and did the right preparation. Oh, and since I was running against the best in the country, I learned how to drive from chasing and watching them. Since my car was prepared to the limit (a lot easier then but then salaries were a lot lower then also), I knew when I got beat it was due to lack of talent rather than using some other reason such as tires. I went to the Nationals the first time just to see how I stacked up against the rest of the country. Anybody who gives up on a skill based activity when they first get started simply because the experienced folk are better probably isn't really interested in the activity.

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT