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It will be up to the TIR competitors to police the class, like any other class. If some one is running tires on the TIR exclusion list, they can be protested.

I think the only responsiblity of the club is determine the exclusion list. And any rules for adjustments to the exclusion list. For example, the tire has to be available prior to the first event of the year.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I agree, and speaking in more objective terms than I used yesterday , PAX is fine for informal comparison against other classes, and maybe a top 10 PAX list would be fun. However we now have 3 official PAX classes that a large number of people use. I haven't added up the numbers yet, but it's over 25% and probably much higher. 2 of the classes (PRO and NOVICE) are specifically to adjust for driver skill. TIR at least has (or had) some technical underpinnings.

Arguably these classes may be leading to less competition in the club, not more. We can bleed off the open classes into PAX classes so more trophies are available. But if the top drivers are in their own group, the open group is under less pressure to improve to that level. If the newbies are in NOVICE, they will face reality in 3 events or less.

I will be making a specific proposal to eliminate the PRO and NOVICE classes (NOT the novice program, just the class). We can still calculate PAX so people can make their informal comparison, but it doesn't need to be "official". I do not believe the sport should have driver skill-based classes.

TIR is a tougher nut to crack. I've always heard 2 seconds on a long course, 1 second on a short course (2.5-3% difference). I saw about a 2 second difference when I switched a few years ago on a long course. Sounds like that is shrinking. If the times we see in TIR are in that range, then there may be a legit reason to keep it going. If they are vastly different, then it MAY be that TIR is evolving to another driver skill class. If that is the case then we should look at eliminating it. I will look at those numbers over the next few days and publish some stats for debate.

My opinion: If you are just out for fun, then you can still have fun in the open classes. If you are out for competition, go head-to-head with the best in your class.

I agree with the elimination of PRO class. The intention of PRO was a place to play for people, for example GH Sharp, Rob Faulkner, Mark Chiles, etc, who woud come to local events. That way they did not spoil the local class points.

But what we have done is bleed off the best drivers from the open classes. And that hurts the competition. Our PRO class is very, very competitive. Speaking only for myself, I find that it takes away from helping and teaching other ES drivers in the open class.

There is nothing to be gained from running PRO, absolutly nothing. We already see a final PAX from the event. And for the most part the top of the PAX ranking is the same running order as the final results of the PRO class. Contrary to popular myth, there is only one car in PRO that runs most of the time to national prep level. I have never run my car at a local event as it would be at a national event. The closes it came was Rockingham. And check those results

I agree with a proposal for the elimination of year end awards for PRO. I think if you have a tire exclusion list, there would be no competitors in TIR that would qualify for a TIR year end award. So you could eliminate that and not impact anyone.

By doing that, you return those classes back to their orginal intent.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I agree 100% on the exclusion list. The TWR is so inaccurate that it never could be used as a gauge anyhow. Banning the "ringer" tires will get the class back to original intent (as I understand it) of "run what you brung" (redneck racing term, sorry). I also agree that people who are truly competative in nature will get the best tires and need to be in open class. And a spec tire won't work. We won't have enough people to show up to run our special "Toyo Class" to make it worth the effort.

I somewhat agree with Kevin on the tread depth idea. I can see another "Hoppe-type" getting his brand new street tires shaved to gain an edge. Sorry Tom, us non super-fast types shave our tires the old fashion way by running them.

I guess it doesn't matter to Ryan and I really because we love Victoracers and Azenis aren't available in the right size for the Talon.

Sorry I'm showing my ignorance here, but how does all this get finally decided? Do we put it to an overall club vote or do next year's officers decide?

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

i must say that all the arguments seem pretty convincing....just please don't let this spill over into STS/STX...i really like my Azenis and it seems like everyone has them anyway.

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05 MCS

I'm probably one of the TIR drivers running on what some people call ringer tires (Azenis). Here are my thoughts:

I still consider myself a relative newbie having a little more than one season under my belt. As many of you know I encouraged each of my sons to participate with me. With all that novice driving I wore out my oem tires much more rapidly than I expected to and had to replace them mid-season. I elected to get some extra rims and put Azenis on them. I put all-season, high performance Continentals on my original rims for my daily driving because I wanted comfort and control (especially in the occasional snow we get - you should see how steep my driveway is!). I think banning certain tires won't stop people from seeking out the best tire for the job. It will merely reduce the seperation between best and worst tire in the class. As others have said, TIR class was for folks looking to autocross without pouring tons of money into their car. The Azenis certainly were priced as a street tire and that was as much a factor in my buying decision as their alleged performance. Being an inexperienced driver I'm more likely to find 2-4 seconds on a long course simply by improving my skills. I'm currently placing in the top third in TIR but still far from trophy. I see TIR as a step up from NOV before moving into other classes. If I felt I could run my car, competively, in another class without pouring more money into it I would consider it. I'm not familiar enough with the class structures to know if that's possible.

Simon

Huh, I assume this is a typo? Classes shouldn't be decided based on driver skill? What should they be based on? The coolest car, the best drift?

How many of the people that want to ban/change tire class actually have run in tire class? Jim, did you ever run tire class? Phil?

I did run tire class, and found it to be a lot of fun and quite useful. Sally got her start in novice class, then in tire class. I think they are both good classes and quite useful.

Very rarely will we see the same people in tire class for more than one or two seasons, if they are serious, they graduate to open class (that's what happened to Sally and I). We started in tire, got serious, bought a spare set of tires, changed them for events (but not at events), and then at the end of that season we went to open class. I know Les Davis will agree with me, when I say that running in tire class was the best season that I've had.

If it weren't for tire class I would barely know who Aaron Buckley is, he would have been in HS and I would have been in GS, we would have hardly mingled. As it was, we *tied* for season points and had an absolute blast pushing each other. He bought his GTS based on driving mine, and those fun-runs are a direct result of the good cometition that we had!

Yes, the index tends to break down with prepared cars, I admit that, but I still think it works awfully well in tire classes. Look at the night series, Mike W. has no problem keeping up in a prepared car on street tires!

I know I will vote for the continued support of street tire (and Novice) class. I do agree, that maybe we should make street tire class a non-season points class, and just award trophies at the event, that might be the carrot that some people need to get them into open class.

During the season, a total of 64 club members ran street tire class at least once. That list includes Phil Wehman (I thought you didn't believe in street tire class? You could have run open class). Of those 64, 38 ran one or 2 events. A total of 5 cars ran "competitively", meaning they placed well and ran a fair (5+) number of events. Of those 5 drivers, 4 of them were in G-Stock cars.

So, we eliminate tire class, and GS grows significantly, adding a bunch of good drivers in under prepared cars on street tires. Instead of having fun competing against each other, they become back markers, faced with the prospect of spending more money to compete.

The remainder of the class, at any given time would have bolstered the non-trophy positions of a few other classes and had no impact on season results one way or another (tire class, open class, etc). These 50+ members fall into the category of occasional autocrosses who no longer take it too seriously.

What good does it do me to have 12 people in my class? The top 3 or 4 are who I am competing against, and in my case, one of those is my wife! If you are worried about bumping, etc, then get a co-driver.

This is getting long and I'm rambling... My feelings on this season are that I won an open class trophy on street tires, and most of the time I missed my Hoosiers. I was looking forward to running Pro class next season against some of the best drivers in the south east. Eliminate Pro class and I don't get that opportunity. Fortunately, I would still have Shawn to keep me challenged in open class!

Scott

FWIW, I was adviced this year to run in TIR by a club officer. They said I'd find more competition there than in open class. This is true, I'd have won everyevent this year in Open class that I attended I think. As It was It was more competative for me to run in TIR no matter what tire I actually had on the car(contrary to popular belief as it seems was not azenis all year). What should I do next year now if you get rid of me in TIR class. Do I just have to get stuck beating on the rest of the HS cars, this doesn't seem like fun to me. There aren't alot of HS cars in our club, even fewer as fast as I am. So I'd probly move with my 300 hp Cavalier Type R to STS which would be a joke. My plan at this point for those who don't know is to get a 91 Storm GSi and built it for STS class anyway so why not start running there. But the car will be developed slowly and it will be some time before it would be as fast as Aaron's Celica or Kevin's Scooby or Matt's Sentra. So now I have to go and run a stock class car against real STS cars?? Keep in mind the Storm has [NO] aftermarket, I'll be building or sourcing almost all my parts from scratch, I expect it to take awhile.

Also, what about the 4 NCAC events, It still has a TIR championship right, will the other clubs change the rule too??[/quote]

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Scott,

Please take a minute and read the posts. I did not say anything about banning tire class. I will repeat it for you to save you some reading, I proposed an exclusion list of tires for TIR class.

I ran street tires for a complete season. I ran in Open class though. I guess I wanted to run with the big dogs. But that has no bearing on this discussion. Nor does who I met, the social aspect, yada yada yada. The discussion is to return TIR back to its original intention. The top cars in TIR all have their own competition tires.

If you have a cold airtake on your Miata, sorry you move to the CSP PAX. If you want to be serious, you have two choices remove it or mod your car a lot more. Same with TIR, if you decide Falkens (or any of the other excluded tires) are the tire you want to run on the street, well onto STS or open. No big deal.

This simple idea return TIR to the orginal intent and may help populate the oepn classes. Thus it returns it to the glory days that you yearn for.

For clarity, I nor have I heard it mention on this thread, DO NOT want to eliminate TIR class.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

What do you think about that, Aaron? Pretty challenging, huh?

As far as the PRO class going away, I was just thinking that if Mike W. really does end up running on street tires, or not running the whole season due to family stuff, then I would probably decide to run in PRO class. Maybe Rob should consider doing that, too?

I don't think any of the paxed classes need to go away, just that those who really want to be competitive should move to Open classes. And if they're constantly beating on their competitors in Open, maybe they should go to PRO class...

But there are good arguments for both sides, and if nothing changes, I'm sure the space-time continuum will be okay.



Oh, PS - I just wanted to point out that GRM did a comparison test on street tires and R tires a while back, and on a 40-sec course, the slowest R tire (Toyo RA1) took the fastest street tire (BFG KD) by 1.5 sec! The pics that went along with the story showed a Neon ACR on clean asphalt.

I agree that street tire class is quite useful! It is probably one of the best ways to learn car control and still be competitive. Personally, I found that after a few years of running on stickies, that I had become "chicken" and wasn't really pushing the car to the limits. Going back to TIR class this year has allowed me to play with lower limits and still get my competitive urges satisfied (occasionally ). TIR has been a great learning tool for Tonya, as she has been improving quicker then she was when we were on stickies.

I'd also agree that TIR builds relationships between competitors that normally might not even pay attention, to each other, otherwise.

If we had a vote, I'd vote that TIR class would stay but without season points.

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In need of car.

Well I have never run in TIR, but what the hey I'll weigh in with my take on it.

I can see the reasons behind the exclusion tire list for the most part. Though the azenis are so damn cheap that its hard to not be able to run them.

My main thought about TIR as a class was that it was set up/would allow for people with stock cars to come out and autox without the bug expense of another set of rims and race rubber. And for those reasons I think TIR is a great class and serves a real purpose. What I don't understand is non stock cars that run in TIR. As I see it if you have the money to modify your car and you want to autox then you either need to bite the bullet for r-compounds or suck it up and run open in your class. I know of several people who run in their stock class on street tires, I mean look at all of HS.
So I would agree with the tire ban list, and also say TIR should open to stock class cars only.

So that's my $.02

First off, we are not talking about eliminating TIR class. All we are talking about is eliminating certain ringer tires from TIR class.

Now as far as tires are concerned, I've probably autocrossed the most different brands competitively in the last two years than about anyone on the forum. I've run Falken Azenis, Hoosier A3s03's - R3S04's, Kumho Victoracers - Ecsta v700, BFG G-Force R1's, and Yokohama AVS Intermediates - A680's. All of these, on the same car no less. All I can say is the difference between and Azenis and Kumho Victoracer or Ecsta is neglible, especially on the surfaces we run. At Laurinburg, there is a difference, but it's not worth the 2 seconds everyone used to quote. Probably about 1.25 seconds on a 60 second course.

What we notice as autocross VP's is that there has been more and more open class dilution due to TIR. NOV class is an exclusion from my discussion, for I find it to be the only entry point to the sport.

As far as people complaining that moving from TIR to open class won't yield any competitors, well three things might happen:

1. You up the ante and move to Pro or STX/STX

2. You choose to run a non-ringer tire and stay in TIR

3. Many people might move out of TIR and class dilution is eliminated.

Obviously, we are not looking to eliminate your options, we are just looking to bring TIR class back to what it was originally intended for... - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Just to clarify, as Jim has properly quoted, I said "ban/change" as I see it, a tire exclusion list is a "change."

I *did* read the posts.

I'm up in the air on an exclusion list, if it happens, I wouldn't want to see it untill 2005, much like the SCCA, a change like that should allow folks some time to plan it.

As it is, I can't support a ban on one of the cheapest tires on the market (Azenis).

Nothing says people can't organize things without an official club party line. I did it with DS this year and I think we all enjoyed the competition (even when Dan was brutallizing all of us). You want a "spec tire" class, get a group together and run one. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing it.

I am all for doing things that will result in "value added" to the club, but so far, I haven't been able to think of a way to add more value than the existing tire, novice and pro classes. The tire and novice classes are working well (IMHO) and at most need tweaking, rather than fixing. If it were my call, I might *expand* the tire classes (I'd like to see two of them, broken down along the lines of the Ladies classing in Pro Solo), but there is more to it than just what *I* want.

Scott

Ok, this discussion is moving so fast that it is hard to keep up.

I don't run TIR, but like everyone else I have opinions.

1. I agree with a ban of specific tires in TIR class. People may not realize it, but the rules allow for this to happen in STS/STX but I don't know if the SCCA has done this yet. I do think that it should be done with enough notice so that people in TIR don't get caught with new tires that they can't use. Also those in "TIR" need to feel this is a good idea. Don't screw up their class if they are happy with it. Even if you have a few who prep their car much more than others and consistently win because of this?

2. If you are trying to get back to the roots of TIR, you still have the issue of someone could show up with a car properly prepared for their root class and just run street tires instead of R tires. Assuming that the driver is as good as the car, they could continue to clean up on those in the class that are under prepared. So is "TIR" a class for those that don't want to buy fast rubber or a class for those that don't want to prep their car? Or is that the same thing?

3. What is the problem that we are trying to solve? I see it as being that those that run in Open Class are not happy with their numbers. So instead of building up the Open Classes the idea is to tear down the PAXed classes? Basically to "encourage" people to move to Open Class. Is TIR and Novice a victim of it's own success? I think that the real question is "why don't people want to run in Open Class?" I know that since TIR and NOV is local that we have more flexibility regarding the rules in these classes. It is just another indicator of how the Open Class rules which (this is a generalization here) are geared toward national competition don't always work well with the grassroots guys that are just in it for the fun at a local level. This is something that is totally out of the hands of this club as I definitely don't support modification to Open Class rules since that screws things up X number of other ways.

4. I have mixed feelings about "PRO". If someone like Aaron who is building a killer STS car runs in PRO, it allows me to maybe challenge for 1st in Open in STS with a car that is not prepared as much as it should be. Is that a hollow victory? Yes, but I still would enjoy walking away with some wood! I still could compare my "Open" time to a "Pro" time if we are running in the same car class (i.e. STS) if I wanted to know how I really stacked up. But there is also not much I can say if someone like Aaron decides to run in Open and kick my ass. If I loose I just need to do better next time.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
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Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.