Karts at THSCC Autocross

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:38 pm

Ok, I know this has probably been discussed on the email list eons ago. But, I can't remember the details....

So, why no karts? I know that there are safety issues, but apparently those are issues that can be worked out. I am not sure, but I think I remember someone saying that our current issurance carrier will not allow it. If so, can that be changed? Is it a money issue? If so how much?

I am just curious because during this point in the year we all wonder if the grass is greener and I wonder if autocrossing karts might be a cheap and easy way to have fun. Anyone else curious?

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:54 pm

I think the only hold up with karts is that no cars can be on the course at the same time as a kart. Otherwise, we've checked it out, and there are no limitations as far as insurance is concerned. - AB

Dan Ecclestone · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21 pm

I would love to have the option to run a kart, especially after reviewing the performance/cost ratio. The other cool thing would be the ability to tow it with most any car and minimal garage space needed.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

a. Would a cone have the potential to flip the kart?

b. How bad would that hurt?

Dan Ecclestone · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:38 pm

Flipping the Kart from hitting a cone is about as likely as flipping a car from hitting a dog or something similar, however hitting the cone itself might hurt

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:40 pm

Cones hurt very bad if they flip into you according to some Karters. I'd think I'd be kind of like standing there and using a cone like a baseball bat to your chest:stick:. The other great thing to ease of towing/cost/space is that you can race it at more venues than your typical car. As far as flipping I wouldn't be afraid of that myself. They are pretty wide and your keister is only 1/2 inch off the ground.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:24 pm

If there is potential that the club could support this if there is enough interest I would seriously consider this. I guess it might be somewhat of a catch 22. No serious debate within the club unless there is interest. No interest unless the club decides it will do it.

I also like the idea of towing with my every day car, etc. My biggest issue personally is that I am built more like a football player than your typical formula car driver. 6' 5" @ 250 lbs of driver is not going to help the power/weight ratio and center of gravity. :cry:

I looked at the Moutons SCCA rules site and it shows that one of the rules for F125 is....

"Minimum weight is 385 lbs. as raced, including driver".

I know very little about these karts, but do people have to ballast the car to get it up to minimum weight? So can I run in F125 at 250 lbs and be able to remove weight/ballast and run at close to the minimum of 385 lbs?

I probably need to drive one of these things to see if I like it or not anyhow. It might be really fun or more dangerous than I am willing to deal with.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:52 pm

It's probably time for the officers to discuss this again, assuming there is demand (and it appears that there is).

I'm not sure we would ever be able to allow carts at the RBC center due to traffic concerns and curbs.

So, keep in mind you will have at least one less venue if you do chose to run a cart (assuming we decide that we want to accomodate the carts at all).

Scott

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:57 pm

I'm interested, but couldn't afford a Kart and all the things i'd need to run it. I'd have to rent a ride with somebody else.

Richard Yes the cars do have adjustable ballast, they are just like mini racecars. It is true though that most of the drivers are smaller guys like myself.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:57 pm

I am in the "thinking about it" stage. I just didn't want to research it much if it was a total "no go" with THSCC.

Basically I am still trying to figure out what to drive next year. :oops:

Dan Ecclestone · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:38 pm

Scott,

Please do discuss it with the other officiers. I had actually already been doing some research on the possibility of buying a kart rather than buying autocross goodies for the STi. It looks like kart tires cost about 1/3 the cost of tires for STi and would likely last longer.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:41 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

If there is potential that the club could support this if there is enough interest I would seriously consider this. I guess it might be somewhat of a catch 22. No serious debate within the club unless there is interest. No interest unless the club decides it will do it.

I also like the idea of towing with my every day car, etc. My biggest issue personally is that I am built more like a football player than your typical formula car driver. 6' 5" @ 250 lbs of driver is not going to help the power/weight ratio and center of gravity. :cry:

I looked at the Moutons SCCA rules site and it shows that one of the rules for F125 is....

"Minimum weight is 385 lbs. as raced, including driver".

I know very little about these karts, but do people have to ballast the car to get it up to minimum weight? So can I run in F125 at 250 lbs and be able to remove weight/ballast and run at close to the minimum of 385 lbs?

I probably need to drive one of these things to see if I like it or not anyhow. It might be really fun or more dangerous than I am willing to deal with.

From working impound at 8 National events and Nationals in 2002 and 2003, I can tell you that the F125 guys are all very small. The heaviest guy I saw was about 205, but don't let that keep you from doing it. You will have no ballast at all. Only drivers in the 140# and lower range use any ballast, and these are the best prepped karts for the class in the country. From seeing them on the scales, I know they weigh about 225-240 lbs. These are all shifter karts, with 7 (?) gears. They accelerate like mad, and are extremely entertaining, but apparently they are harder than hell to drive fast. The reason is that everything comes up that much faster than you're used to.

If you want a little idea of how it might be, go up to G-Force karts in VA and run their 6.5hp Hondas and their dual engine setups (once you qualify). Eric and Chris Peterson, Donnie Barnes, Jack Hall, Tim Aro, Rod McGeorge and I have all done that numerous times over the last year, and it actually helps your timing for autocross.

VIR also has a karting track that have the 6.5 and 13 hp karts which is supposed to be awesome.

Eric, Donnie, Chris, Rod, Tim, and myself are heading down to a day long event in Ocala FL on Dec. 5th, where we are renting the track for a day with 28hp Rotax engined karts... now that is going to be fun. You can check out their site here: http://www.ocalagranprix.com/

Like Scott said, at sites where there is curbing you may not be able to run, and also remember that not all clubs allow karts. I personally think we should, but there need to be the proper guidelines put in place for those who run them. - AB

Phil Wehman · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:12 pm

Quote:

Like Scott said, at sites where there is curbing you may not be able to run, and also remember that not all clubs allow karts. I personally think we should, but there need to be the proper guidelines put in place for those who run them.

We introduced them in the Indy region before I moved down here. It was a mixed experience.
Positive: The fast classes are very cool. Some younger kids can get involved.
Negatives: Course design - We ran a lot of parking lot courses and we had to accomodate the course designs to stay very far away from the curbs.
Time - Only one on course at a time, so it slowed the events down when they ran. Some of the kart classes are very slow and it took them a long time to finish the course. Also, it seemed like many of the karts had a hard time getting started, or would stall in grid or at the line.

All in all, it might be interesting to "pilot" some karts at an event to see how it goes. This club runs pretty efficiently and can probably overcome some the time issues.

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:05 pm

Might want to ask Steven Rankins or Bill Crummett from CCR their impressions. CCR has been running karts both for kids and for adults (lumped in AM or FM, they don't run f125 there) for the last several seasons. It's been quite successful all in all.

My impression is: The karts rarely significantly slow the event, they are generally run before the first run group and are all wheeled out of the way before cars even get in grid. Normal SCCA safety precautions are sufficient to ensure safety from curbs, apparently, as I've never been asked to change a course I designed to accomodate a kart. There are traffic hazards, which is why CCR requires them to be wheeled to the start line and back after their runs. I personally like to see them run and find karts, particularly junior karts, a great way for families to become/stay more involved in solo.

GH might be able to give his views as well. His son ran kart at several events over the last few years.

--Kevin H.

Phil Wehman · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:39 pm

The main lot we ran in had these evil light poles surrounded by tall curbing. We would stick our worker stations there. While the cars could run reasonably close (whatever the rules are ?25ft), I think the karts had to stay twice that distance away (50 ft?). That made a difference in that lot. In a larger venue it might make no difference.

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